BeebSID

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
dominicbeesley
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:16 am
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by dominicbeesley » Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:33 pm

Thanks Dave,

I just realised, I forgot to post up the .ssd

Here it is. On a Master / BBC it should play using the original Mode 7 colourful player on an Elk it falls back on the simplified Mode 6 player.

It is possible to run the simplified player on the Beeb just run *SIDPELK

I'll look at making a proper build system for this and changing the way the core sid mangler works (at present it inserts dummy instructions where it finds ST* LD* instructions to/from original c64 SID addresses and redirects to the BBC sid addresses _and_ stores a copy in memory - right in the middle of the mode 6 screen which is what the flickery dots are all about. I need to delve into the depths of the conversion routines - most of which were not written by me - to move the addresses to something that doesn't clash. I'll try and get something a bit more interesting on the screen too.

D
Attachments
test-20181229.zip
(26.06 KiB) Downloaded 8 times

User avatar
Pernod
Posts: 1442
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:01 pm
Location: Croydon, UK
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Pernod » Sat Dec 29, 2018 2:26 pm

dominicbeesley wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:33 pm
I just realised, I forgot to post up the .ssd
Works in MAME too, with Plus1/Pegasus400/AP5/BeebSID, though AP5 is not yet in a public release.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

User avatar
Leew
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:16 am
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Leew » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:13 pm

dominicbeesley wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:09 pm
I can confirm it _can_ be done. I've finally done something with my AP5!

Here you go: https://youtu.be/CclLIeZl9pgA

If there's a genuine amount of interest I can spend a few hours making a nicer player/menu. If not I can bundle up my stuff and stick it on GitHub for Elk enthusiasts...

D
Excellent =D> =D> I need to get me a BeebSID and an AP5... The Electron never sounded so good :D

Definitely interested in a menu...
daveejhitchins wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:32 am

Am I a little biased :-k I need to get a second batch of AP5s on the go . . .

Dave H :D
Soon as the AP5's are ready Dave, i'll be first on the list :D :D

Lee
Lee W
------------
Proud owner of many Electrons, some Beebs, a couple of Archies, some Commodore 64s, Amigas, Atari STs and an Atari Falcon 030
Lemmings are for life, not just the 90's... https://www.lemmingsworld.me

dominicbeesley
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:16 am
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by dominicbeesley » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 pm

Here's a whole bunch more test ssds. I've not had time to make sure that all the sids actually play but the ones that do should play on an Elk, BBC B or Master with a SID on the 1MHz bus - they all require PAGE <=1900 though

If you want to see the Elk player (dig those funky fonts!) but don't have an Elk just *SIDPELK - you'll get the Elk player but smoother!

D
Attachments
stardot-20190107.zip
(375.6 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

dominicbeesley
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:16 am
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by dominicbeesley » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:55 pm

I've added another thread over in Retro Software for the build system so anyone can create their own SID SSDs

D

User avatar
Multiwizard
Posts: 1490
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:03 pm
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Multiwizard » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:55 pm

Hi,

I don't know if the use the same SID chip but,,,

Can anyone create a .ssd of this song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks3RNLNvpCg


Greetings, Wim... :-)

dominicbeesley
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:16 am
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by dominicbeesley » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:33 pm

That looks to be an Atari tune so not workable with the SID

D

User avatar
Multiwizard
Posts: 1490
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:03 pm
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Multiwizard » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:38 pm

Ok thanks, just asking... :-D

Greetings, Wim... :-)

Boydie
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:25 am
Location: Sunny Wigan
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Boydie » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:32 am

My bare board arrived yesterday (thanks GadgetUK164).

Can anyone confirm whether the SWinSIDs available on Ebay work correctly with it these days? In the past, results seem to have been mixed...
Are any mods required to use one?

I do have a non-working C64 that I can cannibalise if needs be, but I’d rather fix that than sacrifice it.
Last edited by Boydie on Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Leew
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:16 am
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Leew » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:55 am

Boydie wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:32 am
My bare board arrived yesterday (thanks GadgetUK164).

Can anyone confirm whether the SWinSIDs available on Ebay work correctly with it these days? In the past, results seem to have been mixed...
Are any mods required to use one?

I do have a non-working C64 that I can cannibalise if needs be, but I rather fix that than sacrifice it.
I have started building my board, but I am still waiting for my nano SwinSIDs to arrive. I ordered 2 from Australia from kelliejh2014 on eBay. I have had some other C64 bits off her and seemed good quality and haven't had any problems. Unfortunately though she doesn't have any more.

There are a few other sellers on eBay in US, Italy, Netherlands with listings, but don't know if they are any good.

I have 2 C64s that both work fine but I don't want to blow any original SIDs if I get something wrong building the board up.

Hopefully my swinSIDs should arrive next week and I can let you know how I get on :-)
Lee W
------------
Proud owner of many Electrons, some Beebs, a couple of Archies, some Commodore 64s, Amigas, Atari STs and an Atari Falcon 030
Lemmings are for life, not just the 90's... https://www.lemmingsworld.me

dominicbeesley
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:16 am
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by dominicbeesley » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:29 am

I got one from Italy a few years back (don't know if its the same guy selling them now) and it works well and seems well made. It is what I use on my board.

D

User avatar
GadgetUK164
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:59 pm
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by GadgetUK164 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:58 pm

Boydie wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:32 am
My bare board arrived yesterday (thanks GadgetUK164).

Can anyone confirm whether the SWinSIDs available on Ebay work correctly with it these days? In the past, results seem to have been mixed...
Are any mods required to use one?

I do have a non-working C64 that I can cannibalise if needs be, but I’d rather fix that than sacrifice it.
Thanks for letting me know =D Yes, the Nano SwinSID's on eBay work fine with it! That's what I used in my video.
Retro Gaming Mods & Repairs - My YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/GadgetUK164

User avatar
Leew
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:16 am
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Leew » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:19 pm

I have put some time aside to build my BeebSID this weekend (belated thanks to GadgetUK164 for the board :-)), but this electroncs novice would like a little help [-o<

I think I have everything I need looking at the BOM, but would just like someone to clarify connection of the 4 caps C5A & B and C6A & B that connect to pins 1-4 on the SID chip.

I have got 6800pf 63v polystyrene capacitors and looking at the board and schematic layouts, I think they should be connected like this:-
CAPC5C6.jpg
Can someone confirm that these caps should be the right ones (I think they are looking back at some of the earlier posts and discussions around filter caps) and that when I fix them the above is right please?

I'll let you know how it goes and hopefully post a video of my working BeebSID :-)
Lee W
------------
Proud owner of many Electrons, some Beebs, a couple of Archies, some Commodore 64s, Amigas, Atari STs and an Atari Falcon 030
Lemmings are for life, not just the 90's... https://www.lemmingsworld.me

User avatar
IanS
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by IanS » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:13 am

It's unlikely to need 4 capacitors. The extra holes are to allow for different physical sized parts. Use the outline that best matches the size of the components you have.

User avatar
marcusjambler
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 11:20 am
Location: Bradford
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by marcusjambler » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:46 am

As Ian says... You only need 2 off 6800pf poly caps.

My build, from last year.
IMG_3436a.jpg
Marcus
Last edited by marcusjambler on Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Leew
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:16 am
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Leew » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:04 pm

Thanks IanS and marcusjambler for the good advice.

Built the BeebSID today and was very impressed with my soldering. There wouldn't have been enough space to fit four caps :-)

I'm happy with what I have done so far, checked all my voltage across the board and everything looks good. I am disappointed that I couldn't finish because our friends at Rapid Online have sent the wrong chips for IC3. What's in the package doesn't match the labels on the package :-(

So I won't get to play with it until next weekend (assuming I get replacement chips next week)... Anyhow here's the pictures.
IMG_20190209_191554.jpg
IMG_20190209_191424.jpg
Lee W
------------
Proud owner of many Electrons, some Beebs, a couple of Archies, some Commodore 64s, Amigas, Atari STs and an Atari Falcon 030
Lemmings are for life, not just the 90's... https://www.lemmingsworld.me

User avatar
trixster
Posts: 784
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:45 am
Location: York
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by trixster » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:08 am

Very smart!
A3020 | A3000 | A420/1 | BBC B 128K RAM/ROM 20K Shadow Pi0 VideoNuLA
Master Turbo DC BeebSID | Atom | A4000 060 | A3000 060 | A1200 060 | A500
Atari Falcon 060 | Saturn | PS1 | SNES | CPC6128 | C64 | 3DO | MD | Jaguar | X68000

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 5150
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:22 am

Agreed, nice job... :) =D>

Lee wrote:I couldn't finish because our friends at Rapid Online have sent the wrong chips for IC3. What's in the package doesn't match the labels on the package :-(
This was the LS02 I think - just out of idle interest, what was in the packet?

User avatar
Leew
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:16 am
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Leew » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:44 am

MartinB wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:22 am
This was the LS02 I think - just out of idle interest, what was in the packet?
Yeah, it says SN74LS02N on the package, but the chips inside are SN74LS47N. I wouldn't have noticed but for the fact that the LS47 has more legs than my socket :-)

I have gone back and checked the other chips, IC2 with the LS04N is right, but a slight discrepancy for IC4 which should be 74LS30N. The chips I have from Rapid are 74F30N. I can't blame Rapid for that because these are the chips I ordered and hadn't realised they are slightly different. Looking at the datasheet for both and they both look to do the same job with same pin layouts. VCC voltage is slightly different with up to +7v for the F as opposed to +5.5 for the LS. My thoughts are that this should be OK, but would appreciate confirmation from the experts :-)

Lessons learned here is:- Don't order things with complex part numbers (i.e. more than 1 digit) after you have had a few drinks :-D
Lee W
------------
Proud owner of many Electrons, some Beebs, a couple of Archies, some Commodore 64s, Amigas, Atari STs and an Atari Falcon 030
Lemmings are for life, not just the 90's... https://www.lemmingsworld.me

dominicbeesley
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:16 am
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by dominicbeesley » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:59 am

The 74F part is just a faster version. It uses slightly more power but otherwise identical. It should work fine in this circuit

User avatar
Leew
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:16 am
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Leew » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:42 pm

Finally, I have a working BeebSID :-)

Here's about a minutes worth of video of my working board https://www.youtube.com/embed/TuwsAXEPyOw
.
IMG_20190213_192643.jpg
dominicbeesley wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:09 pm
I can confirm it _can_ be done. I've finally done something with my AP5!
I can't seem to get it working on the Electron though. Got my AP5 from Dave a few weeks ago. When I plug it in the 1mhz bus and load the SIDPELK, select a track and I don't get anything out of the Elk speaker and then it hangs after a few seconds. Is it the AP5 that I am supposed to configure? From reading the manual I though I wouldn't need to configure any jumpers or anything because I am not using an ROMs in it.
Lee W
------------
Proud owner of many Electrons, some Beebs, a couple of Archies, some Commodore 64s, Amigas, Atari STs and an Atari Falcon 030
Lemmings are for life, not just the 90's... https://www.lemmingsworld.me

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 6951
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by danielj » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:26 pm

The sound on the 1mhz bus doesn't feed back to the elk's speaker so you'll need to hook it up to an external one.

dominicbeesley
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:16 am
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by dominicbeesley » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:04 am

Leew wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:42 pm
I can't seem to get it working on the Electron though.
That's more than likely my SIDplayer SIDPELK it's been tested on a grand total of 1 Elk's so far.

Things to check:

External speakers
Like DanielJ says hook up external amplifer of some sort (and test on beeb if you can)

Does it run at all
Do you get the menu and then pick a song and it crashes?

is PAGE at &1900 or lower
run

Code: Select all

PRINT ~PAGE
and check result is <=&1900

try a known good ssd/tune
The orcanpeet ssd tunes should all work. I converted a whole bunch and admit I didn't test every one!

Check other stuff
What ROMs and other expansions do you have. My Elk setup was/is "BARE" apart from MMFS, Plus1 and AP5 it could well be interacting with something else.

Please do let me know I'd like to get this working for you!

D
Last edited by 1024MAK on Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Malformed end underline tag corrected.

User avatar
Leew
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:16 am
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Leew » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:42 pm

dominicbeesley wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:04 am
Leew wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:42 pm
I can't seem to get it working on the Electron though.
That's more than likely my SIDplayer SIDPELK it's been tested on a grand total of 1 Elk's so far.

Things to check:

External speakers
Like DanielJ says hook up external amplifer of some sort (and test on beeb if you can)

Does it run at all
Do you get the menu and then pick a song and it crashes?

is PAGE at &1900 or lower
run

Code: Select all

PRINT ~PAGE
and check result is <=&1900

try a known good ssd/tune
The orcanpeet ssd tunes should all work. I converted a whole bunch and admit I didn't test every one!

Check other stuff
What ROMs and other expansions do you have. My Elk setup was/is "BARE" apart from MMFS, Plus1 and AP5 it could well be interacting with something else.

Please do let me know I'd like to get this working for you!

D
I'm at work at the mo, so will do some testing later on with powered speakers.

I picked up the page <1900 from a previous post so have abandoned the Plus 3 and been using a Slogger SEDFS cart for disk access as this leaves page at E00 rather than page being 1D00 when the Plus 3 is attached.

The Plus 1 I am using is a standard Plus 1 with no mods and other than the SEDFS file system, and a tape to disk rom in the Slogger disk cart, the only thing attached is the AP5.

I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks
Lee
Last edited by 1024MAK on Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Malformed end underline tag corrected.
Lee W
------------
Proud owner of many Electrons, some Beebs, a couple of Archies, some Commodore 64s, Amigas, Atari STs and an Atari Falcon 030
Lemmings are for life, not just the 90's... https://www.lemmingsworld.me

User avatar
Leew
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:16 am
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Leew » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:28 pm

dominicbeesley wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:04 am

Things to check:

External speakers
Like DanielJ says hook up external amplifer of some sort (and test on beeb if you can)
Good call. I thought the sound would output through the internal speaker like it does on the Beeb. Plugged the output socket into a phono preamp and then into my PC and hey presto sound output.
dominicbeesley wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:04 am
Does it run at all
Do you get the menu and then pick a song and it crashes?
Yes, known working songs on the Beeb. Pick the song from the menu then it starts to play for about 4 seconds then hangs with the graphics bottom right freezing. Output continues on the last notes played until I press Break.
dominicbeesley wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:04 am
is PAGE at &1900 or lower
As per previous page=&E00

dominicbeesley wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:04 am

try a known good ssd/tune
The orcanpeet ssd tunes should all work. I converted a whole bunch and admit I didn't test every one!
As per above, only songs that work on Beeb ok tried. Should I also try the orcanpeet sdd tunes as well to see if that makes a difference?
dominicbeesley wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:04 am

Check other stuff
What ROMs and other expansions do you have. My Elk setup was/is "BARE" apart from MMFS, Plus1 and AP5 it could well be interacting with something else.
As per previous post, bare Plus 1, SEDFS disk cartridge (which also has a T2SEDFS ROM) and the AP5.


Thanks for helping, much appreciated and hope to get the second Electron playing SID tunes properly :-)
Lee W
------------
Proud owner of many Electrons, some Beebs, a couple of Archies, some Commodore 64s, Amigas, Atari STs and an Atari Falcon 030
Lemmings are for life, not just the 90's... https://www.lemmingsworld.me

User avatar
Leew
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:16 am
Location: South Yorkshire, UK
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by Leew » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:48 pm

dominicbeesley wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:04 am
try a known good ssd/tune
The orcanpeet ssd tunes should all work. I converted a whole bunch and admit I didn't test every one!
I have tried all the songs from orcanpeet.ssd and all have the same behaviour, i.e. play for a few seconds then freeze. They all work on the Beeb fine.

I have recorded a couple of instances on this video so you can see exactly what I mean.
https://youtu.be/FH7mhuQziMI

Thanks
Lee W
------------
Proud owner of many Electrons, some Beebs, a couple of Archies, some Commodore 64s, Amigas, Atari STs and an Atari Falcon 030
Lemmings are for life, not just the 90's... https://www.lemmingsworld.me

User avatar
shawty
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:03 pm
Location: North East England
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by shawty » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:16 pm

dominicbeesley wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 pm
Here's a whole bunch more test ssds. I've not had time to make sure that all the sids actually play but the ones that do should play on an Elk, BBC B or Master with a SID on the 1MHz bus - they all require PAGE <=1900 though

If you want to see the Elk player (dig those funky fonts!) but don't have an Elk just *SIDPELK - you'll get the Elk player but smoother!

D
I have the ENTIRE High Voltage Sid collection if anyone wants it, it's totalling somewhere in the order of 30 or 40Mb's last time I looked.
Been around I.T. since the Beeb was born, maybe you've seen me around :D

dominicbeesley
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:16 am
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by dominicbeesley » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:33 pm

Hi Lee,

Not sure what is causing this problem. To rule out my scroller and text routines please could you try this version with no graphics, just the tune.

D
Attachments
orcanpeet-TEST-NOSCROLL-20190217.zip
(23.91 KiB) Downloaded 2 times

dominicbeesley
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:16 am
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by dominicbeesley » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:35 pm

shawty wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:16 pm
dominicbeesley wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 pm
Here's a whole bunch more test ssds. I've not had time to make sure that all the sids actually play but the ones that do should play on an Elk, BBC B or Master with a SID on the 1MHz bus - they all require PAGE <=1900 though

If you want to see the Elk player (dig those funky fonts!) but don't have an Elk just *SIDPELK - you'll get the Elk player but smoother!

D
I have the ENTIRE High Voltage Sid collection if anyone wants it, it's totalling somewhere in the order of 30 or 40Mb's last time I looked.
Heya, that's what I've been using for some of my source material. The SID files need a good but of processing before they can be played on a beeb. [Most of the stuff for processing was not done by me!] So not all of the tunes can be converted.

D

User avatar
shawty
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:03 pm
Location: North East England
Contact:

Re: BeebSID

Post by shawty » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:33 pm

LOL... Many of them don't play in SidPlay for Windows without some conversion either :-)

I have a program somwhere that I wrote to convert the frequency writes to the SidChip, to VGM Instructions, which could them be converted to native BBC sound.

Like a lot of stuff, though, I have 0 clue where among the tangled rats nest that is my (Many Hard Drives) Storage solution it is :-D
Been around I.T. since the Beeb was born, maybe you've seen me around :D

Post Reply