THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

discuss both original and modern hardware for the bbc micro/electron
drfloyd
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THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:25 pm

Hello,
it's me, the french new MASTER 128 fan :)

I have received my first computer ;

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What do you think of it ? Tell me was is good, and what is wrong

I still should receive a GOTEK for emulation of the floppy disk

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0xC0DE
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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by 0xC0DE » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:18 pm

Congrats! Master 128 is always good ( I have two ). OS selector is pretty handy especially for compatibility with games. What is that thing between the main PCB and the power supply?

Do you know if the PSU is recapped?
0xC0DE
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danielj
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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by danielj » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:40 pm

Looks good - would be tempted to have MOS 3.2, 3.5 and OS 1.2 in the ROM switcher as MOS 3.2 is the most compatible Master version, 3.5 is useful for resetting the CMOS quickly and 1.2 is useful for playing BBC Micro only games. 2.0 is not really too useful for much other than interest! (It's the OS from the BBC B+).

d.

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by flaxcottage » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:54 pm

The Master is a brilliant machine. Well done. =D>

Yes, you will need OS 3.2 for compatibility but OS 3.5 is better for programming - it has fewer bugs.

Is that board by the power supply a compact flash hard drive? If it is that is a bonus.
- John

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drfloyd
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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:47 pm

3.5 is not the best ? 3.2 is better ???? Too late... cannot change I suppose ?
Hope RETRO STUDIOS games will work with 3.5 ????????

Yes, there is a "Hard Disk"... in fact a compact flash... if I have inderstood : it is in the slot for the modem ????????

Little zoom :

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I enter *CAT and here is the result :

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very practical to save my basic programs without floppy and without GOTEK

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by VectorEyes » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:02 pm

That’s a nice Master 128. Congratulations!

drfloyd
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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:04 pm

just afraid about the ROM 3.5... what kind of incompatibility with 3.2 ?????

Please note that I will have 2 Master 128, I suppose I will re-sell one this summer... (If someone interesting here....)

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:22 pm

other thing : when I check Master 128 hardware on internet often i can see theses batteries :

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it is not present on my computer.

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by VectorEyes » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:26 pm

Can you see any batteries in there at all? There should be some in there, they keep the cmos battery settings and the real-time clock working. If your Master is consistently working, then they must be in there somewhere!

drfloyd
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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:30 pm

i go and hunt again... perhaps under the CF Card ???????

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by Kazzie » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:40 pm

drfloyd wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:30 pm
i go and hunt again... perhaps under the CF Card ???????
Yes, that area is a common place to put replacement batteries in a BBc Master.
BBC Model B 32k issue 7, Sidewise ROM board with 16K RAM
Archimedes 420/1 upgraded to 4MB RAM, ZIDEFS with 512MB CF card
Acorn System 1 home-made replica

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:08 pm

found : it is under the keyboard

Question :

To read the CFCard I enter : *CAT

When i will receive my GOTEK and my Floppy disk, how will i choose betwwen CFCard, Floppy and Gotek ????

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by danielj » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:19 pm

So, if you have access to an eprom programmer, you can post a dump of that eprom and we can generate a version of the same thing that has 1.2, 3.2 and 3.5.

You have 2 different filing systems - DFS and ADFS. Most discs were distributed in DFS format - it's single density, and up to 200kb per side. It sees each side of the disk as separate drives - so floppy drive 0 has drives 0 and 2 (*DRIVE 0, *DRIVE 2) and floppy drive 1 has drives 1 and 3 (*DRIVE 1, *DRIVE 3). DFS can't deal with hard disks.

ADFS is a bit more grown up and gives you double density and directories. Discs store 640k and it can deal with hard discs - generally the hard disk is mounted as drive 0, and the first floppy drive is drive 4 (use *MOUNT to mount a drive for ADFS). By default if there's a hard disc ADFS will mount it straight away.

DFS manual: http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... emUGI2.pdf
ADFS manual: http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... ADFSUG.pdf

To swap between filing systems it's *DISC and *ADFS or hold down D or A when pressing break to flip. If you want ADFS to start up without mounting a disc, you can use *FADFS or hold F when pressing break.

(*CAT - or *. as it's usually abbreviated, is ubiquitous to display the catalogue on any filing system)

d.

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:30 pm

thank you, i will check this when receive the GOTEK and the Floppy... and the SDCARD external ! I will have 4 supports LOL

About the ROMs :
there is really an interet to go back to 3.2 ??? What kind of problem can I have with 3.5 ?

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by jms2 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:02 pm

That is a lovely looking machine - it's in really nice condition and has some good upgrades as well.

Personally I have never tried MOS 3.50, but I don't think there are many issues - possibly just one or two games are incompatible with it maybe? For programming it is slightly better if I remember correctly, there are a couple of small improvements and bug fixes. It was only available as an option - all Masters were made with MOS3.20 and not that many people upgraded.

This is the documentation which came with the ROM, from JG Harston's excellent website: http://mdfs.net/System/ROMs/AcornMOS/Ma ... /UserGuide

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by flaxcottage » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:10 pm

If programs are correctly written, using Acorn-approved methods there is no problem with OS3.5. Some games and some other software was not correctly written and expects OS3.2 because the programs call the operating system directly; these programs will not work.

I use OS3.5 on all my machines but one. That one is OS3.2 and I use it when programs do not run on OS3.5. So far I have found just two programs which need OS3.2. I do not play games, though. :wink:

You have a great Master there. Enjoy. :D
- John

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by Naomasa298 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:55 pm

What's in Game-Disk1 and Game-Disk3 (and where's Game-Disk2???).

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:09 pm

Game disk 2 is at the right

There are lot of repertories (good english) with games....

but apparently no recent games like RETRO STUDIOS.... :( All seems coming from 1982-1986

Difficult to play with the keyboard

I will try to develop a little game, i have started with emulator

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Mince
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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by Mince » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:06 am

As an aside on the switching filing systems front...

Since you have a Master, the other way to switch between filing systems is to put "-FS-" at the start of the filename. For example, if you're in ADFS, you can load a BASIC program from DFS with: LOAD "-DISC-PROGRAM".

The other thing you can do is put it after the "*" in a star-command - for example, if I'm in ADFS and I want to select a particular virtual disc in MMFS, I can do "*-MMFS-DIN ROMIMAGES" - normally "*DIN" would only work if MMFS was the current filing system.

These are more useful when you just want to do one thing but otherwise stay in the current filing system. If you're going to nose about and work with DFS for any length of time, type "*DISC" and then everything you do will be in DFS until you change it again.

However, there is one very powerful thing you can do with these, which is copy a file between filing systems that you can't directly do without them. For example, you can do (in ADFS) "*MOVE -DISC-BASICED BASICEDIT" to copy a file from DFS to ADFS ("*MOVE" actually copies and not moves).

On the subject of 3.20 vs 3.50, I use 3.50 all the time - the main advantage I would say is HI BASIC that pushes HIMEM up from &8000 to &B800 if you have a second processor, so gives you 14KB of extra memory for programs. On 3.20, you can do this, but you have to load in a separate HI BASIC ROM image: on 3.50 it can relocate the existing BASIC. The only thing I've come across that doesn't work in 3.50 is Prince of Persia, but I have a MOS selector for that.

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:11 am

thank you for your reply, I wait the material and will reread your comments :)

2 questions relating to your annex comments :

PRINCE OF PERSIA will work with OS 1.2 & 2.0 ? Or it is only 3.2 ?

Hi basic... How can I activate it ?

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by Mince » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:02 pm

Prince of Persia needs a Master and doesn't work on 3.50. It's a recent remake of the old game — it won't be the only thing, but it's the only thing I have. I would imagine there is very little that requires a Master (MOS 3.20+) but doesn't work on 3.50: the stuff I have that doesn't work on a Master usually works on a B, so I think swapping back to 1.20 would be fine for that. (There will be some stuff that doesn't like the Master's different hardware, but there's nothing you can do about that anyway, and it won't work on 3.20 or 3.50.)

As someone said, 2.00 (the B+) isn't very useful, except as a curiosity — it gives you some of the benefits of the extra RAM and shadow memory as a Master but doesn't solve most of the compatibility problems. If you had real B+ hardware it might run some stuff that doesn't run on a Master, but I think running 2.00 on Master hardware doesn't get you anything useful.

For HI BASIC, you need a second processor (like a PiTubeDirect or a genuine 6502): BASIC with 3.50 will automatically relocate itself upwards from &8000 to &B800 in this situation — you won't need to do anything special to activate it. On 3.20, you needed to load a special "HI" version of BASIC to get this. This is a combination of some new features in 3.50 (the relocation feature) and an updated BASIC that supports relocation, so you need both: I guess on your switcher, it will change the BASIC version at the same time (since they're on the same chip), just like the RetroClinic one I have.

Of course, as you have a Master, you can already use shadow screen modes without needing a second processor — by changing to MODE +128 - so for MODE 2, change to MODE 130 and it'll put the screen memory in shadow memory and give you the full space under &8000 (whereas MODE 2 on a B would eat the memory down to &3000), so you can write larger BASIC programs — you just can't access the screen memory directly but, as long as you go through the MOS, it will handle everything for you.

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by Mince » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:14 pm

Have a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s51kxN6k-zs

The final example (MOS 3.50 with a 6502 second processor) would leave HIMEM at &8000 on 3.20, unless you load in a separate HI BASIC. 3.50 just magically gives you more memory.

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:05 pm

As i do not need Hibaisc, OS 3.2 would be better for me.... I have 3 OS but not the best LOL

The second Master 128 I will receive is configure with.... "Additional ROM chips including Spellmaster and MOS+"

What is MOS + ????

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:28 pm

Just received the second MASTER 128, but for now it does not work, when I switch ON I have the following message and it freeze :

Image

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by BigEd » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:58 pm

(Might be a good idea to start a trouble-shooting thread)

Edit: see here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19825

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:15 pm

I have connectez a Turbo MMC SD Card Interface into my Master 128 (users port)

So now, how can I read the card ? (i have no special rom for it)

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by RobC » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:31 pm

drfloyd wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:15 pm
I have connectez a Turbo MMC SD Card Interface into my Master 128 (users port)

So now, how can I read the card ? (i have no special rom for it)
Pretty sure it'll need a ROM (or ROM image loaded into sideways RAM) to work.

You could try loading the MMC filing system ROM image from floppy/gotek (or even your hard drive) as a temporary measure.

In the long term though, the M128 has three internal ROM sockets that are good for ROMs that you want to be permanently accessible.

One of the sockets (IC27) can hold a 16KB ROM which will then show up in slot 8 when you do *ROMS. This socket is always enabled/available.

The other two sockets (IC37 and IC41) can each hold 32KB ROMs but they map to slots 4/5 and 6/7 respectively. Normally, the M128 has 64KB of sideways RAM in these slots so it needs to be paged out by altering links 18 and 19 on the PCB to activate the two 32KB ROM sockets. If the links are in the "WEST" position, the sideways RAM is active, if the links are in the "EAST" position, the ROM sockets are active.

You can choose to have 64KB of sideways RAM and disable both ROM sockets, have 32KB of sideways RAM and enable one socket or have no sideways RAM and enable both sockets.

If you are interested in playing newer M128 games (like Prince of Persia), I would recommend having all the sideways RAM available and so only using IC27 to hold one internal ROM.

You can also buy cartridges that hold between one and four ROMs and they plug into the machine at the front right. These map to ROM slots 0-3.

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:40 pm

understand nothin, i need to progress

anyway with a CF internal + Floppy + soon GOTEK i suppose that this SDCARD is no useful !!!!

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by BigEd » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:51 pm

well, personally I prefer the sdcard approach to the gotek, but there certainly are pros and cons for both.

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Re: THE MASTER 128 OF THE FRENCH FROGGER !

Post by drfloyd » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:36 pm

but on the SD you cannot save your programs

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