Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

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Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by Pernod » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:28 pm

Anyone have the original Genie? I believe it contains a 32K ROM and 2x32K RAM.

I have a ROM image of Genie Junior but it also requires a disk that is MIA, anyone have it and able to image it? I believe it is protected.
- Nigel

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by billcarr2005 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:11 am

I hacked away at the !BOOT on the Genie format disk, since the Genie was password protected. Got it to format, then reused some code to retrieve 4 x 8KB blocks of code which all seem unique, save for the last 256 bytes or so. Not sure if they'll be any use. The Genie is a sealed unit and didn't really want to crack it open :|
Attachments
GENIE.zip
(20.24 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
GENIE FORMAT.zip
(839 Bytes) Downloaded 9 times
Genie Utilities.zip
(16.05 KiB) Downloaded 10 times

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by Pernod » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:17 am

billcarr2005 wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:11 am
I hacked away at the !BOOT on the Genie format disk, since the Genie was password protected. Got it to format, then reused some code to retrieve 4 x 8KB blocks of code which all seem unique, save for the last 256 bytes or so.
Thanks for those, though not sure if I can trust the ROM yet. Which locations did you read to switch the 8K banks? Looks like the default bank is selected at &9F80.
- Nigel

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by Pernod » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:14 pm

Could you post some photos please, of the two discs and the actual Genie device?

From what I've read the Genie simply slots into a ROM socket, no flying leads, so is read only.

The device contains 32K ROM, 32K RAM, and 32K battery backed RAM. From looking at the !BOOT on the Format disc there are reads from &9F84 and &9F04 which must be causing the banking of ROM/RAM. The format procedure is curious:

Code: Select all

lda &9e00, x
lda &a000, y
so need to determine how these correspond to writing to RAM.

It would be really helpful to know how you managed page in each of the 4x8K ROM images, so I can at least ensure they are paged in under the same conditions.
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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by billcarr2005 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:13 pm

Within the !BOOT at &20B0 there was

Code: Select all

LDX#&08
LDA &9EFF,X
LDA &9E00
And then a LDA loop to read from &A000 until &BFFF

I LDA'd from &8000 until &9FFF and STA'd to &3000 so i could see if / when the data was changing.
With X between 1 and 16 I got 1, 17 and 32 (possible) bank 2, 33 - 48 (3) and 49 - 64 (4)

I'll get some photos ASAP

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by tripmeup » Thu May 09, 2019 12:43 pm

Hi,
Derek Mathieson here, the original author of the PMS software. I was looking into adding support to BeebEm for Genie when I found your posts. I think the hardware is much as you describe. From memory (from over 30 years ago!!!).

The Memory Map is, as you guessed,
&8000-9FFF: 4 Pages of 8K ROM (32k in total)
&A000-BFFF: 8 Pages of 8K RAM (64k in total). One half of the RAM is battery backed, but I don't remember which half...

There are also two 8 bit latches on the board. latch one is a write value latch, and latch two is for bank selector and synthetic write.

Latch one is located at &9e00 - &9eff, and Latch two is located at &9f00 - &9fff.
Any read from these pages of memory will latch the LSB of the address bus into the corresponding latch.

The Bank select Latch is laid out as follows:

Bit 7: synthetic Read / NOT Write for internal RAM
Bit 6: Not used (I think)
Bit 4-5: ROM Bank Select
Bit 0-2: RAM Bank Select

Reading from the RAM is a simple case of selecting the correct bank with the top bit set to one (Read), and performing a typical read operation.
Writing to the RAM is a two step process: selecting the correct bank with the top bit set to zero (Write). Read from page &9e with the LSB of the address corresponding to the value you wish to write. Read again from the RAM location you wish to change. This recond read cycle will use write value latch to update the RAM with the new value.

I don't have a copy of the GENIE ROM (but I have a friend who will try to get me one). In the meantime, I tried the ROM image that you posted - but I don't manage to get GENIE to start in BeenEm. The Formatting works, The Hot Key works and the Genie screen appears for a moment but then the screen blanks and the system seems to be stuck. Tantalisingly close, but I can't be sure if it's my emulator hacks (probably) or these is an issue with the ROM dump (possible).

I'll keep you posted on my progress, but if anyone else has a DUMP that they could post I'd be happy to bring the Genie back out of it's bottle one again!

Best regards,

Derek.

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by Pernod » Thu May 09, 2019 1:06 pm

tripmeup wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:43 pm
Hi,
Derek Mathieson here, the original author of the PMS software.
Awesome! So which PMS software did you write, all of it? You'll find elsewhere in the forum that MAME also supports The Publisher, the 64K ROM that uses the Computer Concepts carrier board from Inter-Base.
tripmeup wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:43 pm
I don't have a copy of the GENIE ROM (but I have a friend who will try to get me one). In the meantime, I tried the ROM image that you posted - but I don't manage to get GENIE to start in BeenEm. The Formatting works, The Hot Key works and the Genie screen appears for a moment but then the screen blanks and the system seems to be stuck. Tantalisingly close, but I can't be sure if it's my emulator hacks (probably) or these is an issue with the ROM dump (possible).
I'm reluctant to trust the current Genie ROM so hope your friend is able to provide. Keep us posted on your progress, and I'll also try to utilise the additional info you've provided for use in MAME.

If there's anything else you may have from your PMS days that's not currently archived then please consider dumping and posting. I think we have most of the PMS ROMs but probably missing any support discs that came with some of them.
- Nigel

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by tripmeup » Thu May 09, 2019 1:21 pm

Hi,
I wrote almost all of the PMS code (with the exception of the B2P second processor, and the original RAM Disk). The company was pretty small, just 3 of us (with occasional help from friends, partners, etc.). I wrote the software, Gordon (and his wife) ran the company, marketing, bookkeeping, sales, etc. and Brian did a lot of the hardware.

I was actually looking for a copy of 'The Publisher', it's been a while since I've seen it run.. Do you know where I could find it?

As for the support disks - I fear that most are lost. I will look around to see what still exists.

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by Pernod » Thu May 09, 2019 1:50 pm

tripmeup wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:21 pm
I was actually looking for a copy of 'The Publisher', it's been a while since I've seen it run.. Do you know where I could find it?
See viewtopic.php?f=32&t=16295
- Nigel

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by jms2 » Thu May 09, 2019 3:28 pm

tripmeup wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:21 pm
I wrote almost all of the PMS code (with the exception of the B2P second processor, and the original RAM Disk).
Hello Derek!

I assume when you say "B2P" you are also including the E2P as well? I think the software for both of those was written by John Wike of JAFA systems, but I'd be interested to know if you had a hand in either. I'm involved in a discussion in a separate thread about fixing what appears to be a bug in the E2P OS.

Did you have any involvement in the Electron version of Hi Wordwise Plus.. or better still, a copy of it?
Last edited by jms2 on Thu May 09, 2019 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by tripmeup » Thu May 09, 2019 4:40 pm

jms2 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:28 pm
I assume when you say "B2P" you are also including the E2P as well? I think the software for both of those was written by John Wike of JAFA systems, but I'd be interested to know if you had a hand in either.

Did you have any involvement in the Electron version of Hi Wordwise Plus.. or better still, a copy of it?
Hi!

Yes you assumed right, I made the utility rom for the B2P (sort of disc doctor over the tube), but John did the rest of the software for both E2P and B2P. I didn't have a lot to do with the Elk. We had one in at PMS but it was mostly to check compatibility.

We did sell Hi Wordwise Plus for the Beeb, I presume from your question that the Beeb version is different from the Elk one? We probably still have the Hi Wordwise Plus files somewhere. It might take some time as I don't live in Scotland anymore...

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by jms2 » Thu May 09, 2019 7:25 pm

I think the Beeb version must be different, because it relies heavily on Mode 7, which the Elk doesn't have. Although it is possible that if you run the BBC version on the Elk it just defaults to Mode 6...

I'm sure I have seen a PMS advert in Electron User advertising an Electron-specific version of Hi Wordwise Plus.

EDIT: Found one - Electron User, Jan 1987
EU jan 1987.jpg
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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by tripmeup » Fri May 10, 2019 11:19 am

jms2 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:25 pm
I'm sure I have seen a PMS advert in Electron User advertising an Electron-specific version of Hi Wordwise Plus.
Well, I guess my mind is going.. :? Perhaps I worked on it - I just don't remember. I does look like something I might have done. I sent a message to one of the other PMS people to see if they remember.. finger crossed!

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by jms2 » Fri May 10, 2019 11:43 am

That would be great - thanks!

I think I found a BBC version of Hi Wordwise Plus somewhere on the web, but as the ad says the Elk version is definitely different.

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by tripmeup » Fri May 10, 2019 4:41 pm

jms2 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:25 pm
I think the Beeb version must be different, because it relies heavily on Mode 7, which the Elk doesn't have.
Indeed it looks like I lost a few neurons over the years. After further consultation with a friend from that time, it turns out that we worked on the special version with Charles Moir of Computer Concepts. I wrote the code to intercepted the mode 7 writes with a routing that displayed them in mode 1. Apparently, there might be a 3.5" disk lying around somewhere - he'll take a look.

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by jms2 » Fri May 10, 2019 6:38 pm

Ah, mode 1 - the memory requirement wouldn't be an issue with the second processor. I hadn't thought of that.

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by billcarr2005 » Sat May 11, 2019 11:41 am

tripmeup wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:43 pm
I don't have a copy of the GENIE ROM (but I have a friend who will try to get me one). In the meantime, I tried the ROM image that you posted - but I don't manage to get GENIE to start in BeenEm. The Formatting works, The Hot Key works and the Genie screen appears for a moment but then the screen blanks and the system seems to be stuck. Tantalisingly close, but I can't be sure if it's my emulator hacks (probably) or these is an issue with the ROM dump (possible).
Using the information you supplied, i've read the ROM portions back using LDA &9FB0,A0,90 and 80. The resultant code is the same (ie all four 8K images have the same CRC32, but in a different order :D )
Attachments
GENIE 101.zip
(20.3 KiB) Downloaded 5 times

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by billcarr2005 » Sat May 11, 2019 12:19 pm

Genie 1.02, retrieved using the same method.
Attachments
GENIE 102.zip
(20.64 KiB) Downloaded 5 times

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by Pernod » Sat May 11, 2019 2:04 pm

billcarr2005 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 11:41 am
Using the information you supplied, i've read the ROM portions back using LDA &9FB0,A0,90 and 80. The resultant code is the same (ie all four 8K images have the same CRC32, but in a different order :D )
Thanks for those, I'll take another look at them.
tripmeup wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 1:21 pm
I wrote almost all of the PMS code
Did you do the Genie Clock ROM? I have this mostly working in MAME but would be good to know if I've missed anything.

The Dallas DS1216 overlays the ROM and read at addresses &8000, 8001, 8004. This allows reading the time but I don't know how it's ever written to set the time and alarm.
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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by billcarr2005 » Sat May 11, 2019 2:49 pm

tripmeup wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:43 pm
The Memory Map is, as you guessed,
&8000-9FFF: 4 Pages of 8K ROM (32k in total)
&A000-BFFF: 8 Pages of 8K RAM (64k in total). One half of the RAM is battery backed, but I don't remember which half...
Provided I'm doing it correctly, reading with &9F80,81,82,83 produces "garbage" whereas reading with &9F84,85,86,87 produces mostly nothing, so I think this is the battery backed half, notes still appeared after power off in &9F84. I think the formatter also expects to find "DEREK" at offset &70 within that 8K block too :)

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by tripmeup » Sat May 11, 2019 9:48 pm

Pernod wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:04 pm
Did you do the Genie Clock ROM? I have this mostly working in MAME but would be good to know if I've missed anything.
Yes, I wrote the Genie Clock.

It has been a while, so I dug around in the docs to remind myself. We used the DS1216E which uses a pattern of 64 reads to gain access to the clock memory (I guess you know all this already).

In the ROM version address line A2 takes the place of the /WE signal.

After you send the bit pattern to the watch. The next 64 reads can either read or update the clock contents. To quote the datasheet:
"The next 64 cycles will cause the SmartWatch to either receive data on data in (A0) or transmit data on data out (DQ0), depending on the level of /WRITE READ (A2)."

Hope this helps...

Derek.

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by tripmeup » Sat May 11, 2019 9:54 pm

billcarr2005 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:19 pm
Genie 1.02, retrieved using the same method.
Thanks. I guess I must have mixed up somewhere. The order of the images seem to be mixed up somehow... If I reassemble them in the order of 80 B0 90 A0 it seems to work "more" successfully. but I still can get it to work. My friend might have found the original source code of Genie (on 5.25" disk). I guess there is a >50% chance that is is long gone but I see if he can read anything off of it (not sure I'd like to risk posting it).

Further research is needed... :-)

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by Pernod » Sun May 12, 2019 3:22 pm

I've fully implemented Genie in MAME, but since it uses split modes doesn't look great due to limited 6845 implementation.

For reference the source is at https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/ma ... /genie.cpp

I found the 1.01 ROMs the most usable and could navigate all menu options. With the 1.02 set it gets stuck in Desk Diary.
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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by billcarr2005 » Sun May 12, 2019 4:09 pm

If you think it might help, it would be trivial to dump the (battery backed) RAM sections, just after resetting the device, in case the ROM code is looking for something specific?

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by Pernod » Sun May 12, 2019 4:26 pm

billcarr2005 wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:09 pm
If you think it might help, it would be trivial to dump the (battery backed) RAM sections, just after resetting the device, in case the ROM code is looking for something specific?
Unlikely, but I'll let Derek comment on whether that may be useful. I think current issues are due to having bad dumps of the latch region &1F00-1FFF, as the banks will change during the dump process. Page &1F is identical in all ROMs which seems rather wasteful, maybe intended?
Looks like CJE have one for sale without casing, ready for dumping. http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/micros/indiv ... PMS-GENINT

Out of curiosity, there was also a Master cartridge version, see http://8bs.com/see/genie.jpg. Would that have been identical to the BBC version or maybe reworked to make use of the Write line?
Last edited by Pernod on Sun May 12, 2019 4:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by CMcDougall » Sun May 12, 2019 7:19 pm

must of got this from school 1992?

might be same / diff :?

!boot has been changed so it loaded & worked in my Watford rom/ram 144k board

v.1.01 per *DUMP r.Rom
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ssd
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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by CMcDougall » Sun May 12, 2019 8:23 pm

Pernod wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:26 pm
Out of curiosity, there was also a Master cartridge version,Would that have been identical to the BBC version or maybe reworked
going by the write up on my disc, file W.GENIEJ (use *TYPE to read it easily)
says that the M128 version was battery backup, so beeb not, hence needing the older version v1 discs.

my version just works! :lol:
gj101.png
NEEDS to be disc Write Protect Off ticked in emulators....
ImageImageImage

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by Pernod » Sun May 12, 2019 8:35 pm

CMcDougall wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:23 pm
Pernod wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:26 pm
Out of curiosity, there was also a Master cartridge version,Would that have been identical to the BBC version or maybe reworked
going by the write up on my disc, file W.GENIEJ (use *TYPE to read it easily)
says that the M128 version was battery backup, so beeb not, hence needing the older version v1 discs.

my version just works! :lol:
gj101.png
NEEDS to be disc Write Protect Off ticked in emulators....
This is a good find =D> But this is Genie Junior which is a disc based version, the original Genie that we've been looking at contains 32K ROM and 64K RAM, some of which is battery backed. Maybe there was a different Genie Junior for the Master?
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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by tripmeup » Mon May 13, 2019 11:00 am

Pernod wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:35 pm
This is a good find =D> But this is Genie Junior which is a disc based version, the original Genie that we've been looking at contains 32K ROM and 64K RAM, some of which is battery backed. Maybe there was a different Genie Junior for the Master?
The Master version and BBC version of Genie were basically identical. We effectively repackaged the BBC genie into a cartridge form factor but the hardware stayed the same. I think the ROM was slightly adapted to take care of the Master specifics in its hardware (shadow RAM, etc.).

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Re: Genie/Genie Junior by PMS

Post by tripmeup » Mon May 13, 2019 9:37 pm

CMcDougall wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:19 pm
v.1.01 per *DUMP r.Rom
Ahhh Genie Junior. Thanks for the upload - another program that I feared was lost forever...
genieJ.png
(Genie Junior's Easter Egg screen)

Derek.

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