BeebEm Mac - Info

discuss bbc micro and electron emulators (including mame) here!
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lurkio
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio »

geraldholdsworth wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:52 am
I've also found the keyboard not to be as responsive as my fast-ish typing - some characters get missed.
Yes, I've had similar keyboard-related issues with this beta version of Mac BeebEm, and I think it's probably one of the more urgent problems that need solving because it's so fundamental to emulating a Beeb accurately: you want to be sure that you don't miss a single keypress!

Mind you, I'm not underestimating the difficulty of the problem. It'll be a hell of a challenge, trying to track down which bit of the ageing codebase is too slow for the newish 64-bit OS it finds itself on...

(Btw, I noticed a while ago that even on the 32-bit-compatible macOS Mojave, the 32-bit version of BeebEm is slower than it used to be on the rather ancient macOS Snow Leopard (OS X 10.6)! I proved this to myself recently by installing Snow Leopard Server in a VM and running BeebEm in that -- and the keyboard felt more responsive than it does on Mojave! (I'd have kept the VM going but I couldn't get sound working in it, and it seemed like too much of a faff to sort out.))

:idea:
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by CommanderCoder »

I've had a look at the bugs and I inadvertently didn't set up the 'diskimgs' to copy to the Resources folder. This is why the hard drive doesn't work. I think your problems with ADFS with the hard drive enabled are an artefact of this. Try *MOUNT 4 to mount the ADFS drive.

The ROMS.CFG isn't working because I made a change to the way in which I expected BeebEm to be installed. I was half way between having BeebEm5 as an application in the Applications folder; and having BeebEm5 as an executable that you can copy to your own user folder. Traditionally, it was the latter. If I continue with the former, I'll have to add a preference setting that sets up which folder it should use to get user files. I could require them in a $HOME/.beebem folder I suppose. I think I'll switch it back to being an executable as normal for the time being.

The romwrite settings aren't saved because there weren't saved in the Mac version that I used to start the conversion. It appears to be somewhere between version 3 and version 4.0 of BeebEm. I'll look at utilising the latest Windows version of BeebEm for the core system; but that depends upon how tightly woven it is to Windows.

I'll keep at it and let you know when the update is available.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by daveejhitchins »

I've had a look at the bugs and I inadvertently didn't set up the 'diskimgs' to copy to the Resources folder. This is why the hard drive doesn't work. I think your problems with ADFS with the hard drive enabled are an artefact of this. Try *MOUNT 4 to mount the ADFS drive.
Sorry still no hard drive working. If I load Disc0 with an .adl file: I can mount 0 or 4 and see that disc, however, no hard drive.

I'll keep at it and let you know when the update is available.

Thanks - Dave H.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by pixelblip »

Thank you for all your hard work Commander Coder!
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio »

pixelblip wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:11 am
Thank you for all your hard work Commander Coder!
Hear, hear!

=D> =D> =D>
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 »

Fantastic, running well on macOS 11.2 RC-3.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by CommanderCoder »

Thanks. I’ve been a busy but I will get back to it in a few months.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Yrrah2 »

Can someone create a .dmg and post a link? I don't have xCode to create one myself.
Or is there one already? (couldn't find it)

Cheers
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio »

Yrrah2 wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 11:11 am
Can someone create a .dmg and post a link? I don't have xCode to create one myself. Or is there one already? (couldn't find it)
Try the link in the README:

https://github.com/CommanderCoder/BeebE ... /README.md

:idea:
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Yrrah2 »

Looks like the version in the readme is made in november.
Thought there has been some changes since then, or am I wrong?

Cheers
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio »

A report about "BeebEm5" apparently running slowly on Big Sur:

viewtopic.php?p=308538#p308538

:idea:
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 »

Screenshot 2021-02-28 at 11.29.35.png
-
With BeebEm 5 running on MacOS 11 I seem unable to mess around with the keyboard layout.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio »

Possible keyboard input issues with "BeebEm5" on macOS 11.0.1 Big Sur:

viewtopic.php?p=310666#p310666

lurkio wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:48 pm
cardboardguru wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:15 am
... it seems no matter how I map it, b2 just returns a keycode of 0 for that key. And several of the other keys, like 1 and 5! And so does BeebEm5.
For the record, what model of Mac are you using? And which version of macOS?
cardboardguru wrote:
Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:04 pm
Macbook Pro. Big Sur (11.0.1).
:!:
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by franton »

CommanderCoder wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:21 pm
That'd be great if you figure it out. It was on my list of things to do soon. I just reinstated PASTE but I want to get COPY (i.e. LPRINT) back in before I push that.
I tried and failed, because I'm not a developer just an admin. Then real life got in the way ... Much apologies.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 »

Then real life got in the way
Far too often, far too often: roll on retirement. :)
Last edited by richmond62 on Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio »

I do wonder what the future of Beeb emulation on the Mac will be, given that Apple are transitioning away from Intel, and dev work on Mac BeebEm seems to be in the doldrums a bit — through no fault of those brave souls who have volunteered to grapple with the Mac BeebEm codebase, of course: I’m sure it’s a mammoth task and they’re doing their very best in their spare time, which is greatly appreciated!

But perhaps, in the short term at least, any Apple Silicon Mac users will have to resort to running Windows Beeb emulators under a VM or CrossOver and Rosetta..? I don’t have any Apple Silicon machines myself, so I don’t know how practical that is.

And then maybe in the somewhat more distant future someone will take up the gauntlet and write a Beeb emulator that’ll run on multiple types of Apple devices (Macs, phones and iPads) — which is what the promise of Apple Silicon is supposed to be, after all..?

:? [-o<
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Richard Russell
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Richard Russell »

lurkio wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:07 pm
But perhaps, in the short term at least, any Apple Silicon Mac users will have to resort to running Windows Beeb emulators under Rosetta..? I don’t have any Apple Silicon machines myself, so I don’t know how practical that is.
It's entirely practical in my opinion. Rosetta 2 is amazing, and I don't think it it should be thought of as a stop-gap or a workaround, indeed it solves a number of problems presented by 'Apple Silicon'.

For example when running (my) BBC BASIC, numeric results are significantly more accurate (about 20 significant figures of precision) under Rosetta 2 emulation than they are when running natively (about 16 sig.figs). Also, under emulation the BBC BASIC inline assembler is usable, whereas it's not when running natively because Apple imposes the hardened runtime in that state.

Of course execution speed is reduced somewhat, but the M1 CPU is so fast you probably won't notice the difference compared with an x86 Mac. Once enabled, Rosetta 2 is activated automatically with x86-apps and they just run. I'm not an Apple fan (that's an understatement!) but credit where it's due, and I only have praise for Rosetta 2.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by franton »

lurkio wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:07 pm
I do wonder what the future of Beeb emulation on the Mac will be, given that Apple are transitioning away from Intel, and dev work on Mac BeebEm seems to be in the doldrums a bit — through no fault of those brave souls who have volunteered to grapple with the Mac BeebEm codebase, of course: I’m sure it’s a mammoth task and they’re doing their very best in their spare time, which is greatly appreciated!

But perhaps, in the short term at least, any Apple Silicon Mac users will have to resort to running Windows Beeb emulators under a VM or CrossOver and Rosetta..? I don’t have any Apple Silicon machines myself, so I don’t know how practical that is.

And then maybe in the somewhat more distant future someone will take up the gauntlet and write a Beeb emulator that’ll run on multiple types of Apple devices (Macs, phones and iPads) — which is what the promise of Apple Silicon is supposed to be, after all..?

:? [-o<
The short version is any emulator will have to be recoded.

The longer version is an emulator such as BeebEm would effectively have to be rewritten in a high-level language such as Swift (with SwiftUI based controls for the GUI) then cross compiled in Xcode for both Intel and Apple Silicon, the binary signed by a dev with an Apple developer account, then properly notarised and finally thrown into an pkg format also properly signed to ensure it can deploy properly.

That fixes the Apple Gatekeeper based warnings when you try to run an unsigned and unchecked app bundle on the OS. It'll also provide a level of OS forward compatibility since it's clear that Objective-C and the APIs and libraries currently used are being slowly phased out.

EDIT: While I'm aware of the processes involved, and even did a little design work on various continuous integration systems for this stuff, what I described is mostly out of my area of expertise. Needs a real Swift developer.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 »

Richard Bannister's Horizon already runs on Apple ARM processors:

https://www.bannister.org/software/horizon.htm
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Richard Russell »

lurkio wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:07 pm
resort to running Windows Beeb emulators under a VM or CrossOver and Rosetta..
The reference to "a VM or CrossOver" has been added since my earlier reply. That's a whole extra can of worms of course, and I don't have any relevant personal experience, but I note that Codeweavers say that CrossOver runs well on M1 Macs.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio »

Richard Russell wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:00 pm
The reference to "a VM or CrossOver" has been added since my earlier reply.
Yes, I’m sneaky like that… :wink:

Richard Russell wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:00 pm
I note that Codeweavers say that CrossOver runs well on M1 Macs.
Yes, it’s very intriguing! I wonder if anyone’s tried it with BeebEm or any other Windows Beeb emulator..?

:?:
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio »

franton wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:55 am
The short version is any emulator will have to be recoded.

The longer version is an emulator such as BeebEm would effectively have to be rewritten in a high-level language such as Swift
Not a job for the faint-hearted, certainly! But a great challenge if anyone fancies it and has the relevant skills.

Of course, our hero might run into the old issue that stymied Reuben Scratton’s iOS Beeb emulator iBeeb: the issue is that Apple (sometimes?) doesn’t allow emulators on the App Store. But if developers start writing more and more apps that run not just on iPhones and iPads but also on Macs (where, I think, emulators have always been allowed), then Apple might start hearing from customers who expect to be able to use any such app across all their devices. (Plus, there’s growing scrutiny of the App Store’s monopoly on the means by which apps can officially be installed on iDevices. Not that that’s guaranteed to change things, but a man can dream…)

:-k
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by franton »

The common misconception is that everything I’ve mentioned automatically means App Store delivery. It’s still more than possible to live without it.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 »

I own a 2018 Mac Mini running macOS 11.5 beta 2 that is full of software, not a bit that has been downloaded through the app store.

Is it just me, or is there a feeling that Richard Bannister's Horizon is off limits?
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Richard Russell »

richmond62 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:49 pm
Is it just me, or is there a feeling that Richard Bannister's Horizon is off limits?
Do I understand that it's a port of BeebEm (it's described as "formerly MacBeebEm")? If so how up-to-date is it in respect of recent improvements to BeebEm such as the MODE 7 bug fixes? And when you say it runs on Apple Silicon, is that natively (i.e. compiled for the M1 CPU) or under Rosetta 2 emulation?
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio »

Richard Russell wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:10 pm
richmond62 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:49 pm
Is it just me, or is there a feeling that Richard Bannister's Horizon is off limits?
Do I understand that it's a port of BeebEm (it's described as "formerly MacBeebEm")? If so how up-to-date is it in respect of recent improvements to BeebEm such as the MODE 7 bug fixes?
Last time I checked, it seemed that one major limitation of Horizon was that it didn't load disc-images (.SSDs and DSDs). It only loaded [“non-packaged”] files [directly] from the host filesystem, and the only Beeb filing system it emulated was, I think, tape.

I get the impression that Horizon isn’t being actively developed.

:!:
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 »

SShot 2021-06-14 at 21.36.56.png
This is what Richard Bannister sent to me today: not particularly transparent.

I have just lobbed him this via his website:
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SShot 2021-06-14 at 21.41.36.png
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So, with any luck we shall find out from the source; espcially as there is NO documentation on the website.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Pernod »

richmond62 wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:38 pm
So, with any luck we shall find out from the source; espcially as there is NO documentation on the website.
Why not just read the changelog, in the latest download? It's barely changed since 2003, just been rebuilt to keep running over the years.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 »

Why not just read the changelog
Because I'm not in the habit of doing that.

As you can see, I am doing my best to "seduce" R. Bannister:
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SShot 2021-06-15 at 9.01.27.png
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio »

franton wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:17 pm
The common misconception is that everything I’ve mentioned automatically means App Store delivery. It’s still more than possible to live without it.
On iOS and iPadOS (which are what I was digressing about upthread), you can’t really avoid using the App Store.

But on the Mac it is of course perfectly possible to live without the Mac App Store — for now..!

8-[
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