Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

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VectorEyes
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Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by VectorEyes » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:24 am

Morning all,

I'm playing around with Beeb development and at the point where I want to be able to build using BeebAsm on my PC, and deploy-and-test to my Master. It's got an internal DataCentre, but currently it's a bit of a pain because I have to copy files to a USB stick, then plug it into the DataCentre and import the SSD image. (Doubly annoying because I'm trying to avoid cutting the case further, so I have to run with the case screws unplugged so the USB cable can hang out!)

This got me thinking about ways you could build on PC and deploy without having to swap USB sticks around. First thing I tried was something I saw on one of the Retroclinic YouTube videos where Mark uses a wifi-enabled SD card plugged into a USB<->SD adaptor plugged into the DataCentre to deploy files over wi-fi. So I bought a SanDisk Connect... Which turned out to be basically useless because 1. It drops connection and is generally flakey, 2. It only uses a Web interface, no proper SMB network share, and 3. It has a power switch on the side that you have to press to turn on the WiFi! Oh and 4. You have to disconnect from the internet and connect to its WiFi access point so you lose 'net access while you're developing which turns out to be a total pain.

Now I'm pondering other approaches to this. Has anyone else done something similar? Things that spring to mind:

- get a better WiFi USB stick/adapter, one that can be set up to connect to my home WiFi and present itself as a SMB share.
- USB switcher so I can plug the stick into my PC and the Beeb at the same time and flip between them.
- make use of one of the other ports to be able to actually deploy directly using receiver/listener program on Beeb side, with some kind of intermediate device (RaspPi, ESP32 etc) in between.

But I'd really like to keep it as simple as possible, which is why the "deploy to usb stick over wi-fi" was so appealling... If it had actually worked!

Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm hoping that given how many people do Beeb development here, somebody's already solved this. Or does everyone develop on emulators and then occasionally check on real hardware?
Last edited by VectorEyes on Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MartinB
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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by MartinB » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:57 am

I develop on a PC, both standalone code proggies and sideways roms. I do exactly what you want to do using, perhaps predictably, UPURS and specifically using UPLOAD which simply allows you to do a *LOAD directly from the PC, albeit via a cable.

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by BigEd » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:13 am

I have been known to paste smallish programs over the RS423 serial port, but UPURS is a much faster and more convenient interface: it's a simple cable, and a ROM.

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by colonel32 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:02 pm

Can you plug a FlashAir into your datacenter?

The newer ones have WebDAV, so you can map a drive on Windows etc.

I use one for Spectrum development, it works pretty well.
Last edited by colonel32 on Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by VectorEyes » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:00 pm

colonel32 wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:02 pm
Can you plug a FlashAir into your datacenter?

The newer ones have WebDAV, so you can map a drive on Windows etc.

I use one for Spectrum development, it works pretty well.
I think you can. After some faffing around with the Sandisk Connect drive I realised that I could actually map it using WebDAV and Windows could see it... but it was incredibly flaky, dropped connections, wouldn't copy files, etc. If the FlashAir ones are better I might consider one!

Just looked at the specs and it looks like you can even still use the internet while connected if you make use of their 'internet pass-thru' mode, but it basically sits in the middle and you connect to your router through the FlashAir which sounds a bit inefficient. I'd love it if there was one of these devices which would just sit on your WLAN and be a Samba share!

Thanks for the suggestion though, I might give one a go.

(Also thanks to everyone else for the UPURs recommendation! That also looks like a good solution).

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by MartinB » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:55 pm

VectorEyes wrote:(Also thanks to everyone else for the UPURs recommendation! That also looks like a good solution).

It is, and it just works. Way better than all this modern temperamental twaddle.... :lol:

(Also, with the built-in pseudo filing system UPCFS which replicates the CFS but at lightning speed, you can LOAD and CHAIN Basic programs and *RUN machine code - all directly from your PC 8) )




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Last edited by MartinB on Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by BigEd » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:58 pm

I suppose this is the link for UPURS:
https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/UPURS/

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by Elminster » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:56 pm

If it is a master you can also use real wired Ethernet but you still have to faff about changing files to valid bbc programs etc. So not really any easier than UPURS and you need to buy the Ethernet card. I think it is much faster but not ever done any comparison timings.

Commands are more complex than upurs so i used to chain a program that set all the f keys.

I did have issue with compatibility between Ethernet and data centre though.

Which is fastest/easiest/cheapest all thing considered is hard to say (unless you are Martin, I know what he will say :) )

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by myelin » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:26 pm

If you can get UPURSFS (HostFS:UPURS) running well, it lets you run binaries directly off an attached PC, using the UPURS bit-banged 115k2 serial port.
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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by kieranhj » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:31 pm

I like the idea of UPURS to deploy directly to a Beeb but then realised no modern PC has an RS232 port (my laptop certainly doesn’t) - does this work through a USB to RS232 converter? If so, can anyone link to any they recommend?
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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by VectorEyes » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:36 pm

I've become spoiled I suppose. I've spent the last 10 years working on systems where you build, hit the "deploy and run" shortcut, and whatever piece of hardware you were targetting wakes up, receives its payload of code and data, and runs it!

Ok, I will be digging into UPURS. First question is to establish whether you can run the PC-side host software in such a way that it's easy to build from BeebAsm to a disc image in a specific folder on the PC, then have the Beeb boot or otherwise access the new image (maybe by importing to a DataCentre drive, that would be OK, I could set up shortcuts to speed up the import.)

Ah, @Myelin posted while I was writing that.... So what is the nature of the file system on the PC side? Is it accessing disc images, or does the Beeb literally gain access to a folder on the PC? In which case how does it handle the load/run metadata?

@Kieranhj the UPURS Website showed a video of a pc usb to rs232 converter in use, so I think that's how people are using it with modern PCs.

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by MartinB » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:01 pm

Yes, the one below has always been my recommendation because it’s based on the reliable FTDI chipset and importantly, like it’s partner UPURS, it also just works... =D>

(Indeed, I developed UPURS from day one around this very adaptor.)

http://www.tronisoft.com/shop/adaptors- ... -90cm.html


3DFDAB66-BE89-4DB6-B8BF-87469F641EC1.png


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Last edited by MartinB on Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by Elminster » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:28 pm

MartinB wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:01 pm
Yes, the one below has always been my recommendation because it’s based on the reliable FTDI chipset and importantly, like it’s partner UPURS, it also just works... =D>
You should probably pointed out that unless they already have a usb rs232 device kicking about they want to try, it is not worth buying anything else as high chance it won’t work. Don’t try and save a buck and go for you recommendation.

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by VectorEyes » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:50 pm

OK, and where do we get the Beeb user port -> serial cable? Or do I need to get the soldering iron out again...? :)

EDIT: Found the UPURS manual, working my way through it. Er, Martin, I may be contacting you about sourcing a cable... :)

Second problem, looks like Tubehost doesn't like Windows 10... :(
Last edited by VectorEyes on Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by MartinB » Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:36 am

I franchised-out the cable making to others on here because I constantly have Beeb-project bandwidth issues 🙄. I do still make the odd one and I wouldn’t see you stuck but just now I’m away on hols for a couple of weeks plus, I’m not convinced I have the D-types in stock so overall, if you need me for a cable, it could be three weeks or so ☹️. That’s rubbish I know so maybe there are other willing and able volunteers looking in who could help you....?

Also, UPURS Tubehost isn’t mine so I can’t help with that I’m afraid.
Last edited by MartinB on Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by VectorEyes » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:11 pm

MartinB wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:36 am
I franchised-out the cable making to others on here because I constantly have Beeb-project bandwidth issues 🙄. I do still make the odd one and I wouldn’t see you stuck but just now I’m away on hols for a couple of weeks plus, I’m not convinced I have the D-types in stock so overall, if you need me for a cable, it could be three weeks or so ☹️. That’s rubbish I know so maybe there are other willing and able volunteers looking in who could help you....?

Also, UPURS Tubehost isn’t mine so I can’t help with that I’m afraid.
I'm away for a few weeks myself... let's give it a few weeks and then I can beg for somebody to make me a cable!

I'll see whether I can work out why Tubehost (JGH version from mdfs.net) won't launch, and see if I can fix it if it's simply missing some DLLs. If not might try to see whether I can get sweh's Perl version running under Windows somehow.

People who use UPURS, I have a question for you! What are you using on the PC side?

- JGH's Tubehost on Windows? If so which version of Windows are you on?
- sweh's Perl Tubehost? If so on Linux, or Windows?
- Something else?

Thanks!

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by BigEd » Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:15 pm

I think I've used PerlHost, on Linux, and I'm pretty sure hoglet has too. (It's been a while.)

Edit: reference http://mdfs.net/Software/Tube/Serial/ because I keep getting confused about host software vs client software.
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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by MartinB » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:18 pm

Well, if you don’t mind a few weeks lead-in then I’ll sort the cable for you, and an UPURS v5 eprom if you need help with that too? (Although you can run nearly all the UPURS utilities from disc, the eprom is much more convenient for a development environment which is what this is all about.) I normally charge something like £11 for the two, UK posted.

Personally, as a significant Beeb & Elk software, firmware and hardware developer (and I mean ‘significant’ in the quantity sense, others must judge the quality 😜), I only find that I need the UPURS toolset driven simply by a serial terminal at the PC where for me and most others, that’s achieved through the recommended Hercules for Windows. If it’s a single file, I simply fire over the object code straight to memory or to sideways ram or if it’s a more complex suite, I use real floppies (but could be Gotek or SD etc.) building the DFS disc images in DFS Explorer (Jon Welch) and I use UPURS to send over and write the disc image. In all cases, the transfers take literally seconds and I have a pretty slick development cycle.... :D 8)


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Last edited by MartinB on Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by myelin » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:22 pm

Being the one who originally suggested UPURSFS/HostFS, I should jump in here to confirm what MartinB just said! Standard UPURS is pretty bulletproof once you get your cable sorted out, and *UPLOAD will do most things you need, then *UPSSD and *UPDSD will let you upload entire disc images. So if you're actually looking to get things done rather than mess around trying to optimize your build pipeline, using standard UPURS is an excellent idea.

If, on the other hand, you're looking to optimize the hell out of things without regard for how long it takes to set up, UPURSFS/HostFS is pretty magical once it works :) There's a thread here about getting it to work, that started from my experiments with using a USB microcontroller with its own serial adapter code instead of the (strongly) recommended FTDI cable, that would be worth reading.
Last edited by myelin on Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by MartinB » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:26 pm

Phillip wrote:So if you're actually looking to get things done rather than mess around trying to optimize your build pipeline, using standard UPURS is an excellent idea.
Ha! It’s important to point out that unlike many folk on here, I’m not from a computer or software background and so much of the stuff that people get up to just leaves my eyes totally glazed over. Looking in therefore, I think I see many in the retro computer world that appear to expend significant effort in bringing their Acorn environment into the modern age, or as Phillip phrased it, ‘optimising their build pipeline’, but then having got there, not really doing much more in the actual productive sense with these fancy toolsets and set-ups. Myself however, being a relative Luddite, loves producing things for the Beeb that work, that ‘does stuff’ and that is fun to use so my approach to tools is generally, the simpler the better and ones that are no more complicated than I need to support my Beeb projects.

I suppose the point of all that flannel is just to explain that when I say that all I use is floppies and UPURS to develop on the Beeb and Elk, I’m aware that my approach isn’t necessarily widely portable because I’m significantly disconnected from many on here in the ‘software systems’ sense. So, in the case of the UPURS example, I can see why people might find UPURS plus Hercules far too ‘trivial’ and would feel much more comfortable following Phillip’s excellent refinement of UPURSFS/HostFS.


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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by Elminster » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:33 pm

Or in other words your build pipeline uses lead pipes, a well and a hand pump :evil:

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by MartinB » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:36 pm

Pretty much, except no hand pump - just a bucket on a rope......

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by myelin » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:55 pm

MartinB wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:26 pm
Looking in therefore, I think I see many in the retro computer world that appear to expend significant effort in bringing their Acorn environment into the modern age, or as Phillip phrased it, ‘optimising their build pipeline’, but then having got there, not really doing much more in the actual productive sense with these fancy toolsets and set-ups.
You just described me perfectly =D>
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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by Elminster » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:39 pm

I am waiting for Siri/Alexa support in UPURS

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by VectorEyes » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:53 pm

Point well made -- and taken on board! -- about the perils of optimising your build pipeline instead of getting on with actually developing something!

Martin, thanks so much for offering to make the cable and ROM. I'll send you a private message a bit later.

To be honest, UPURS plus Hercules seems like a pretty efficient approach. I'd like to get upursfs running but if I can't get Tubehost (windows or Perl versions) running on my Win10 machine then Hercules it will be!

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by VectorEyes » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:21 am

BigEd wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:15 pm
I think I've used PerlHost, on Linux, and I'm pretty sure hoglet has too. (It's been a while.)

Edit: reference http://mdfs.net/Software/Tube/Serial/ because I keep getting confused about host software vs client software.
A bit of hacking around last night suggested to me that nobody has been using the Perl version on Windows. Windows would need to use Win32::SerialPort instead of Device::SerialPort, but there are other linux-specific Perl commands (use of stty, which apparently doesn't exist on Windows) in the UPURS-specific codepaths.

It can probably all be worked around but it's not going to be trivial. I'm going to move back to trying to get the Win32 TubeHost.exe working on Win10 for a day or two.

EDIT: SOLVED! Tubehost.exe will only run if your PC actually has some COM ports. If your PC literally has none then it starts up then immediately quits.
Last edited by VectorEyes on Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by sweh » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:08 pm

VectorEyes wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:21 am
A bit of hacking around last night suggested to me that nobody has been using the Perl version on Windows. Windows would need to use Win32::SerialPort instead of Device::SerialPort, but there are other linux-specific Perl commands (use of stty, which apparently doesn't exist on Windows) in the UPURS-specific codepaths.
I tested it on Windows XP a couple of times (with the "-s" flag), and it worked there, but it definitely hasn't been rigorously tested by me on that platform.

I've no idea how performant it is because it uses Device::SerialPort for the comms (which did work on the perl version I used on Windows). The "-U" path is pretty much Linux optimised. "-s" mode should work with a UPURS cable (eg "TubeHost -s COM4 115200") but may be slower than on Linux ("TubeHost -U /dev/ttyUSB2 115200").
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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by tom_seddon » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:36 pm

I've been working on something along the lines of UPURSFS or 65Link. It should have higher throughput than UPURSFS though, and be more compatible with modern systems than 65Link (which needs a user port-to-printer port cable). After a bit of a shaky start - getting the basic transfer working reliably was rather painful - I've got a bit further with it in the last few days and I think it's going to be a goer. Still not quite ready for GitHub just yet though...

As is probably inevitable there's a microcontroller involved, a little 8-bit AVR in my case. BBC connects to microcontroller via user port, microcontroller connects to PC via USB. There's a node.js server that runs on the PC, some firmware for the microcontroller, and a filing system ROM for the Beeb. Throughput is about 10KBytes/sec for *LOAD and *SAVE, but I've got higher hopes for the final performance figures as the throughput in my test code is 60KBytes/sec BBC->PC and 51KBytes/sec PC->BBC.

Initially it'll just save swapping media about when developing using a PC: you can just get your PC to assemble stuff to a place where the server can see it, then boot it using Shift+BREAK. (This is how I always used 65Link.) But in the longer term I intend to add some kind of basic messaging system, so you can in effect make requests of the BBC by sending HTTP messages to the server, e.g., by using `curl' in your build script. Current plans for this are a sort of Beeb target mode, as you might get from a console devkit or embedded system (entered via the language entry point, so you get back to it after pressing BREAK), letting you make the BBC do stuff at the PC's request. And ideally there'd be some low-overhead way of polling for such messages from your own code, too, so that could do the same sort of thing.

At the moment it uses the 65Link format for file names and metadata, since 65Link is what I've previously been using for my BBC files, but I'll be changing it over to use the more popular .INF. I also still need to get rid of a few bugs, implement OSGBPB, and add all the * commands that are still missing.

--Tom
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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by sweh » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:17 pm

FWIW, with hoglet's updates, I did some speed tests (basically *LOAD/*SAVE a 16Kb chunk of memory) with UPURSFS:

Loads: 999 in 3092.95 secs ==> 15.609 Mbytes at 42335.3 bits/s
Saves: 1000 in 5501.10 secs ==> 15.625 Mbytes at 23826.5 bits/s

(There was only 999 LOADs 'cos I forgot to create the seed file, so the first SAVE created it).

Each file was uniquely named, so I was also able to verify the load/save cycle had no corruption; FILE 1000 matched FILE 1.

(Wee, no 31 file limit! :-) )

The real speed might actually be a little faster 'cos I also had a *SPOOL file open, so additional write calls were being made... so I'm just ignoring that :-)

Code: Select all

   10TIME=0
   20FOR A=1 TO 1000
   30LET B=A+1
   40O$="FILE."+STR$(A)
   50N$="FILE."+STR$(B)
   60PRINT "Loading ";O$;": ";TIME
   70OSCLI "LOAD "+O$+" 3000"
   80PRINT "Saving ";N$;": ";TIME
   90OSCLI "SAVE "+N$+" 3000+4000"
  100NEXT
  110PRINT "Finished: ";TIME
  
Last edited by sweh on Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Deploy-and-run from PC to Beeb?

Post by cmorley » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:11 am

I'm a bit late to the party, I've only just spotted this thread.

I use vanilla serial and a program on the PC. No ROM. *FX2,1 on the BBC and the PC then squirts across a fast loader which uses 38k4 baud and CRCs everything. Works fine for me. I don't have all the tools that Martin has implemented for UPURS.

Fastest option is the Tube serial board I did with the FT232. USB straight to the BBC bus :) does 100KB (not kbit) a second with a plain read loop or upto 400KB a second using the "code stuffing" technique I demoed with the Bad Apple (mode 0). Again I don't have Martin's level of tool support.

The tools are driven from the PC so you don't need a ROM. Yey! I haven't finished them. Boo! But could be prompted to.

Programming wise I do trivial stuff in BBC BASIC and assembler directly on the machine. Everything else I use BeebASM or C on the PC with a makefile and squirt it over on a keypress.

Why this way? My old Dell laptop I only just stopped using has a real serial port on (now using a USB dongle adapter with new laptop). I regularly remote control the BBC by redirecting the console to serial which is a MOS feature (*fx2 & *fx3). 4KB/s was fast enough for me (now I have 400KB/s 8) ). And for my hardware dev I don't need any ROMs except BASIC and the OS to issue *fx2,1... indeed I could patch the OS even to bootstrap from serial - might do that for future projects and easy with the OS RAM.

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