Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

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guesser
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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by guesser » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm

If it's anything like other retro computers people mainly just want to play the old games they remember for a few minutes until they remember how terrible they were in reality...
A web based teletext editor which can export as Mode 7 screen memory: https://zxnet.co.uk/teletext/editor

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BigEd
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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by BigEd » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:33 pm

Most people do, but many people go on to explore programming or enhancing or repairing. (And those people will also enjoy the occasional game.)

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Elminster
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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by Elminster » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:35 pm

lurkio wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:08 am

As I said above when you mentioned B2 before:
lurkio wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:01 pm
Elminster wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:41 pm
There is don’t forget B2 runs native on Mac and That does have a Mac release.
https://github.com/tom-seddon/b2/releases
Doesn't work for me. Tried installing it in High Sierra. It just brings up a black screen. (Which, incidentally, is what it did when I tried installing an earlier version in Yosemite a while ago.)
I'm not complaining or expecting you to troubleshoot -- but because you keep mentioning B2 I'm just pointing out again that the DMG of B2 doesn't work for me. I'll mention it on the B2 thread (where I did already mention my earlier lack of success on Yosemite, incidentally).

:idea:
This was more a response to ‘there is no emulator on the Mac that works out of the box as a release DMG, I.e. you don’t have to compile’ for people joining the bbc world. Rather than a fix to you issue. Still suffers the same issue as any platform in that sometimes even then it doesn’t work.

And I had been up since 5am and sitting in an airport in Rome stressing about whether there would actually be planes to Stansted at the time. :)

Edit: I wonder what B2 is moaning about, i have never had an issue with it, in fact I think the only Mac emulator that has always worked, although I usually use b-em on Mac, and beebem on Docker, Linux or windows.
Last edited by Elminster on Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by daveejhitchins » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:16 am

danielj wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:56 pm
B-em runs on more recent mac os :)
danielj wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:48 pm
Personally I don't think the compiling is very far down the techy-route (I perhaps unfairly think if you're using unsupported free software you should be prepared to get your hands a bit dirty here and there). Perhaps someone will work out how to package it nicely. Of course, the ultimate solution when one encounters something you want and no one else is doing is to roll up your sleeves, start reading and have a punt yourself, hoping secretly that your efforts will be so god-awful that someone who knows what they're actually doing will take pity and fix it for you :D
Sorry Daniel . . . I've quoted you for convenience - not to directly pick-on-you!

I can't resist . . . I've just jot back from a field in the lakes - with no mobile signal at all :cry: So a catch-up with this thread which seem, in places to be way off topic!

The problem I have, and I'm sure many others, is the fact that delving into Mac, Linux or Windows command line is just too scary - even with Daniel's detailed instructions . . . I use BeebEm3 and it works just fine (OK it has issues and bits missing, but hey!). It loaded first time and just works. I've tried loading BeebEm4 and failed every time. So what's the difference. BeebEm3 was a DBM file - BeebEm 4 needed command line installation. Hmmmm! Now you might thing I'm a bit dim, not been able to follow simple instructions - it may well be the case - to someone that works with and understands software. There are also lots of brilliant software writers that shy away from hardware . . . Are they considered simple - no! So, whereas the latter like to get hardware projects ready-built - the former likes software products 'bundled' for easy loading. Not to provide either is taking away the use and enjoyment of the particular project. OK, it may be that it's in Beta - but . . . ?

I've gone over this a few times before, however, thought it was worthwhile just reminding everyone that we're all different and have different skill sets . . .

Dave H :D
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Products: ARA II, ARA III, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by Elminster » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 am

It is one of those egg/chicken things. People who are happy installing from command line are not to worried that it is not available as a dmg. People who aren’t happy to install from command line are unlikely to be happy creating a dmg.

Also creating a dmg is more complex that just compiling for personal use, and most of the emulator developers don’t actually have Mac’s either. So not much happens.

I was going to look at doing a DMG but I went down the Docker route instead.

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by Elminster » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:21 am

daveejhitchins wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:16 am


The problem I have, and I'm sure many others, is the fact that delving into Mac, Linux or Windows command line is just too scary - even with Daniel's detailed instructions . . .
Some sort of irony there as the Unix command line was invented before the Acorn MOS, so in theory Linux/Mac cli more Retro than beebs are. The further irony being that beebs only have cli (ignoring later optional mouse driven utils)

But then my IBM mainframe operation skills are not up to much either
Last edited by Elminster on Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:47 am

I've installed software from the Linux command line (bash) before.
The problem that I often encounter is missing dependences. Especially when you try to compile software that was written some time ago, and some of the dependences have moved on to later versions.

So what would be nice would be a list of required dependences and the versions required. Also helpful would be links to the development sites of the dependences.

I'm sure that someone could describe this better, but for the most part, dependences are software packages that provide graphics, sound, sub-routine library routines, functions to provide WIMP functions and other interfaces to the OS or the system.

So they either have to already be installed, or installed/compiled before the main application. some installers I think semi-automate the process so that the system can search for and install missing or out of date dependences before trying to compile the main application. But these can still be broken if something changes after the file has been created (such as a newer version of some of the software).

So just like a hardware problem, you have to look at the problem, look at the error message (look at the symptoms) and work back. Then find out what command was used (what chip is being used) and go and look up what it is suppose to do. Often just searching the internet will find plenty of information or comments, some of which may well help.

From my perspective, the main thing that stops me, is lack of time to do this kind of thing. Because with emulation applications, instead I just fire up a real machine as it's quicker :lol:

I agree, this thread needs tidying up. Unless another mod/admin beets me to it, I'll see what I can do later when hopefully I will have more time...

Mark
Last edited by 1024MAK on Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by lurkio » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:06 pm

Elminster wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 am
I was going to look at doing a DMG but I went down the Docker route instead.
Is this the Docker you're referring to?

Could you please briefly explain what Docker is and how it might be used to bring Beeb emulation to the Mac (if indeed it can)?

:?:

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by danielj » Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:11 pm

I confess, I've looked at docker very briefly and it was opaque enough that I went off to do something else. I admit, I only had a look at the website for a couple of minutes but I couldn't tell if it was free, to pay for, how to go about installing it, what I needed to run an application wrapped up by it etc, etc...

edit: That link makes a bit more sense than the one I found by googling initially!


d.
Last edited by danielj on Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by Elminster » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:50 pm

lurkio wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:06 pm
Elminster wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:04 am
I was going to look at doing a DMG but I went down the Docker route instead.
Is this the Docker you're referring to?

Could you please briefly explain what Docker is and how it might be used to bring Beeb emulation to the Mac (if indeed it can)?

:?:
Docker is how the internet works behind the scenes. Docket is a form of container, an application run in isolation. Everytine you do a google search you use a container. It is eventually how most thing will run unless some new technology comes along.

Docker allows you to build applications that include all the dependencies. You just tell it to run the app with one command in the command line and it sorts everything out for you. No need to install anything.

I gave the link to my blog entry above somewhere.

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by Elminster » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:50 pm

danielj wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:11 pm
I confess, I've looked at docker very briefly and it was opaque enough that I went off to do something else. I admit, I only had a look at the website for a couple of minutes but I couldn't tell if it was free, to pay for, how to go about installing it, what I needed to run an application wrapped up by it etc, etc...

edit: That link makes a bit more sense than the one I found by googling initially!


d.
So you didnt read what I wrote then ?

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=15031&hilit=Docker#p202182

Edit: free for non commercial support, same as red hat, MySQL, Ubuntu etc. Install is simply. Main issue at the moment is you would need to use vnc. But I stopped development as no interest. But all works.
Last edited by Elminster on Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by danielj » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:00 pm

I did, but it was going to take substantially more time than I had to try and get my head around what was going on -> I started having the same feeling as when I tried to understand how to build something with maven. The entire container paradigm is rather alien to me!

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by Elminster » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:02 pm

danielj wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:00 pm
I did, but it was going to take substantially more time than I had to try and get my head around what was going on -> I started having the same feeling as when I tried to understand how to build something with maven. The entire container paradigm is rather alien to me!
If you don’t have time for my Acorn blog then looking at a website won’t be any easier. Like most things it is quite easy but hard to explain in one line. If you understand VMs then you can understand containers.

It is how the cloud works behind the scenes.
Everytime you spin up an app in the cloud it will be s container.

Edit2: I could try and do a demo at Cambridge if any interest.
Last edited by Elminster on Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by Elminster » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:16 pm

Just remember I put the explanation in part 1 and install instructions in part 2. So if don’t care how it works and just want to try Beeb emulators under Docker the instructions were in this post

https://elminster.github.io/blog/2018/0 ... docker_how

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by lurkio » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:53 pm

Elminster wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:50 pm
lurkio wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:06 pm
Is this the Docker you're referring to? Could you please briefly explain what Docker is and how it might be used to bring Beeb emulation to the Mac (if indeed it can)?
Docker is how the internet works behind the scenes. Docket is a form of container, an application run in isolation. Everytine you do a google search you use a container. It is eventually how most thing will run unless some new technology comes along.
Hmm. I actually preferred this capsule description of Docker, from your blog:
On his blog, Elminster wrote:Docker is one way to do Linux Containers … Containers are not VMs but it may help people to understand them as an ultra-lite VMs (which on the Mac they are but that is another story) ... Whereas a VM will have the whole O/S duplicated inside it, you can think of a container as having a load of API’s to the kernel services on the host server rather than having the entire O/S installed inside. So to an application it might look like it is a VM or Hardware but it isn’t either.
However, I don't fully grasp this:
Elminster wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:50 pm
Docker allows you to build applications that include all the dependencies. You just tell it to run the app with one command in the command line and it sorts everything out for you. No need to install anything.
Surely someone would have to had to build and install the Beeb emulator inside the "container" at some point? Are you saying that you or someone else has pre-built a container with B-em (say) already installed inside it? If so, where is this container? I couldn't quite make out whether your blog answered that question.

Also, what's the advantage of installing B-em inside a Docker container on a Mac as opposed to just building and installing B-em on the Mac directly? Is it that Dockerized apps are easier to distribute (because you build them once and then publish them in a container and users can just download the container)?

:?:
Last edited by lurkio on Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by Elminster » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:26 pm

lurkio wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:53 pm

However, I don't fully grasp this:
Elminster wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:50 pm
Docker allows you to build applications that include all the dependencies. You just tell it to run the app with one command in the command line and it sorts everything out for you. No need to install anything.
Surely someone would have to had to build and install the Beeb emulator inside the "container" at some point? Are you saying that you or someone else has pre-built a container with B-em (say) already installed inside it? If so, where is this container? I couldn't quite make out whether your blog answered that question.
Yes me, but it is fully automated (using Jenkins) , when a developer commits to github it automatically gets rebuilt (Jenkins polls github and starts docker build if something changes) and the docker image uploaded to my container repository. And next time you run the container it will auto update.
Also, what's the advantage of installing B-em inside a Docker container on a Mac as opposed to just building and installing B-em on the Mac directly? Is it that Dockerized apps are easier to distribute (because you build them once and then publish them in a container and users can just download the container)?

:?:
Correct. A docker container contains the compile program with all the dependencies. Also the same image will run on Mac, Windows or Linux, you don’t need to do anything.

It is going to be quicker running native of course but then you have to work out how to build it. The other reason for doing it is if it crashes it doesn’t take out the machine. You can run many imagines without effecting each other. Running Beeb emulators is a bit of a convoluted example really. I had an idea of a running a server using containers, a bit like Jsbeeb on web really. But lack of time and interest I put on back burner.

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Re: Non-https links to specific posts don't redirect correctly

Post by Elminster » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:39 pm

Ah, doesn’t look like anyone who has quizzed me about Docker will be at Cambridge Abug anyway (was in Cambridge today but was taking relatives around the sites/sights).

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