Electron overheating video

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:21 am

Started this as a mail conversation with Dave.H but thought I would move to the forum for others. We don’t have much fault finding in the fault finding guide for Electron.

symptoms:
After machine has been on a few mins the display will start flickering on and off, the flickering gets get worse the longer on, with it off longer and more frequent. The machine does not crash and you can carry on doing what ever it is you are doing, makes playing games hard though.

Does this on both RGB and composite ports.

Tried:
Switching tv ports
Removing MRB
Swapping the ULA (from an identical issue 4)

I believe Dave said the next step would be using a scope. Not sure where yet.

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 4196
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by daveejhitchins » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:28 am

May be worth getting some freezer spray and seeing which IC is causing the problem - it sounds as if it is an overheating issue . . .

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:46 am

daveejhitchins wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:28 am
May be worth getting some freezer spray and seeing which IC is causing the problem - it sounds as if it is an overheating issue . . .

Dave H :D
I have some deep freeze (and deep heat) for spraying on injuries. Or some spray for freezing pipes.

is there a particualar brand anyone recommends?

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 4196
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by daveejhitchins » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:18 pm

Elminster wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:46 am
daveejhitchins wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:28 am
May be worth getting some freezer spray and seeing which IC is causing the problem - it sounds as if it is an overheating issue . . .

Dave H :D
I have some deep freeze (and deep heat) for spraying on injuries. Or some spray for freezing pipes.

is there a particualar brand anyone recommends?
Hmmmm! Not sure about those two. RS sell some that is safe to use on electronics e.g. you can spray it on 'live' . . .

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:23 pm

Deep freeze would just make a mess. Gives a freezing feeling, doesn’t realky freeze, springing real freeze on skin would put you in hospital.

User avatar
CMcDougall
Posts: 6096
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:13 pm
Location: Shadow in a Valley of Scotland
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by CMcDougall » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:41 pm

What video :?

Need to see it going bizarre !
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:42 pm

Nothing to see. The monitor reports no signal, then it comes back.

User avatar
1024MAK
Posts: 7566
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:46 pm
Location: Looking forward to summer in Somerset, UK...
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:51 am

In the event of fire and/or smoke, call BeebMaster, I mean, in the event that you don't have any 'electronic' freezer spray, if you have a can of air, aka 'air duster', turn the can upside down and spay this on the chip you suspect. Failing that, put the whole naked board in the air path of a powerful fan.

And yes, a scope (or old style CRT display) may give more hints.

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4794
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by MartinB » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:19 am

1024MAK wrote:...if you have a can of air, aka 'air duster', turn the can upside down and spay this on the chip you suspect. Failing that, put the whole naked board in the air path of a powerful fan.
If you have some IPA or another alcohol-based cleaner (or even vodka), put a drop or two on one chip at a time and then blow with an air stream - the consequent evaporation will cause the chip to experience significantly greater cooling than by using air alone. Latent Heat of Evaporation and all that....

(Try blowing on the back of your hand and then licking same and blowing - you will notice a big difference.)

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:41 am

1024MAK wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:51 am
In the event of fire and/or smoke, call BeebMaster, I mean, in the event that you don't have any 'electronic' freezer spray, if you have a can of air, aka 'air duster', turn the can upside down and spay this on the chip you suspect. Failing that, put the whole naked board in the air path of a powerful fan.

And yes, a scope (or old style CRT display) may give more hints.

Mark

I do have air spray (not to be confused with hair spray). And a Rigol 1102E.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:44 am

MartinB wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:19 am

If you have some IPA or another alcohol-based cleaner (or even vodka), put a drop or two on one chip at a time and then blow with an air stream - the consequent evaporation will cause the chip to experience significantly greater cooling than by using air alone. Latent Heat of Evaporation and all that....
I do have IPA but all out of Vodka, I have some ginger beer as well.

IPA might be the way to go, people might think I am mad if I start buying Vodka for my Computer. :D

Thanks for the tips all.

User avatar
1024MAK
Posts: 7566
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:46 pm
Location: Looking forward to summer in Somerset, UK...
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:52 am

Elminster wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:41 am
And a Rigol 1102E.
Set up the 'scope on the composite output (monochrome mode) on a working Elk with some chunky graphics showing on screen. E.g. Coloured vertical bars. So that you can actually see the diffent voltage levels for the differently coloured bars on the 'scope.

If available, set the trigger mode to 'TV line' and play until you get the signal for one TV line on the 'scope.

Then, you can connect up the 'scope to the faulty Elk...

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:03 am

1024MAK wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:52 am
Elminster wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:41 am
And a Rigol 1102E.
Set up the 'scope on the composite output (monochrome mode) on a working Elk with some chunky graphics showing on screen. E.g. Coloured vertical bars. So that you can actually see the diffent voltage levels for the differently coloured bars on the 'scope.

If available, set the trigger mode to 'TV line' and play until you get the signal for one TV line on the 'scope.

Then, you can connect up the 'scope to the faulty Elk...

Mark
Good idea. Only problem is the faulty Electron IS my working Electron. :) Unless I fix the two broken Electron's.

Maybe something for ABUG Cam.

User avatar
1024MAK
Posts: 7566
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:46 pm
Location: Looking forward to summer in Somerset, UK...
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:09 am

Or use a Beeb / Master etc...

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:31 am

1024MAK wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:09 am
Or use a Beeb / Master etc...

Mark
Okay so they behave the same. Yes I could use a master that is geographically close.

Edit: I also have one of dem thermometer attachments for my multimeter. Might give me a clue if the data sheet operating temrperature are accurate.
Last edited by Elminster on Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:14 am

Looks like only 6 or 7 IC (depending on MB) deal with video. So not to bad. Although on an Electron that is quite a high percentage. They are mainly 74ls00 ( got spares of those), 74ls86, 74ls08 and 74(L)S74. Will see what others I have tomorrow. Chances are faulty one will be one I don’t have.
Last edited by Elminster on Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:18 am

Not managed to google definite answer on using plumbers freeze spray, but at the end of the day they are just coolant and propellant. And plumber spray is usually non flammable (probably due to proximity of blow torch) and several say friendly to plastic and ceramic on them. Only thing I am not sure on is temperature.

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4794
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by MartinB » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:40 am

Look at the CPC site - I’m pretty sure you will see simply no-frills freezer spray.... :)

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:14 am

MartinB wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:40 am
Look at the CPC site - I’m pretty sure you will see simply no-frills freezer spray.... :)
It was more about getting it today. I.e. go in screwfix and buy freeze spray

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4794
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by MartinB » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:33 am

Understood. You can also use an ice cube in a plastic bag to cool a single chip fairly well. (Use one of the ice cubes from your vodka...😜)

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:32 pm

That had crossed my mind, we have ice machine, wondered about condensation. We do have a traditional ice pack bag, no condensation condenses on that. But it would cover most of the Electron.

I could just put dehumidifier on maximum! Or do it outside. Grass is all dead so not much of a dew point outside.

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4794
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by MartinB » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:03 pm

I have often used an ice cube in the finger of a latex glove. Very directable and surprisingly effective.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:51 pm

Bought vodka from sainsbury. Wife going to drink what I don’t use. Will put ice in the vodka

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4794
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by MartinB » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:16 pm

Whilst she’s tiddly, negotiate an increase in the household budget for essential Beeb equipment.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:37 pm

First attempt failed, think I tried to check to soon, opening the case must allow enough air flow to cool it down as it stopped before I could work it out. So clearly border line.

Perhaps next time I will leave it flickering for longer before opening lid.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:15 am

Some extra observations while sorting knackered eeprom in plus+1

Was mucky around with Electron for quite sometime and had no flickering issues, I put this down to the fact I was using simple text screens and the AP5 not plugged in etc. Therefore Electron drawing less current and not getting as hot. Once I had the AP5 pluggged back in it started flickering.

It was also stable when I had the AP5 in but an unpopulated Ap6 in my other plus 1. Left that with asteroids load up.

So I think problem is one of current draw, poor circulation and ventilation ( not helped by the MRB). So it could be that I don’t gave a failing part as such. Obvious options are

- better part that works in higher temps
- better ventilation, I.e. try to get a small fan near the psu in the Electron.
- stick some of those mini heat sinks you get for raspberry pi’s

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 4196
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by daveejhitchins » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:07 am

@Duncan . . .

Everything should be well buffered, in respect of the Data lines etc. Which would only leave the power supply! I've carried out lots of tests, recently and BITD, however, there's still a chance you could have a faulty unit. Could you monitor the +5V line at the PSU connector to the main Electron PCB. If you can get a 'scope on there too, especially when it's playing-up - may turn-up more information.

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
vanekp
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 7:09 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by vanekp » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:43 am

I had problem with my Elk when it 1st arrived doing similar things, I took the ula chip out and cleaned the connections on the chip and the socket connections and not had a problem since. I suspect it was from being stored for a long time.
Peter.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:25 am

vanekp wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:43 am
I had problem with my Elk when it 1st arrived doing similar things, I took the ula chip out and cleaned the connections on the chip and the socket connections and not had a problem since. I suspect it was from being stored for a long time.
Already swapped ULA was the first thing tried. And this one has been in use for good 6 years and been doing this since all the extras got added a couple of years ago.

Edit: I should add the donor Electron is playing up at the moment in other way so I cannot prove 100% I don’t have two bad ULAs but I don’t think so.
Last edited by Elminster on Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 2416
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Electron overheating video

Post by Elminster » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:30 am

daveejhitchins wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:07 am
@Duncan . . .

Everything should be well buffered, in respect of the Data lines etc. Which would only leave the power supply! I've carried out lots of tests, recently and BITD, however, there's still a chance you could have a faulty unit. Could you monitor the +5V line at the PSU connector to the main Electron PCB. If you can get a 'scope on there too, especially when it's playing-up - may turn-up more information.

Dave H :D
Yep I can do. My biggest issue is the case has to all be in place or it doesn’t do it. So possibly the gap for the probes may give enoug air flow. Will give it a go.

Now if Martin get the i2c clock module inside he Electron that has a built in temperature sensor on the board..... but I may get also try poking my temperature sensor wand from the multimeter inside and see if I can measure the ambient temperature it’s starts being an issue.

Post Reply