CMS system roms.

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CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Fri May 18, 2018 6:01 pm

Here are the dumped CMS system roms as I know some people expressed an intrest in them.

I'll hopefully have the first of the manual scans to submit over the weekend now I figured out that png files are *MUCH* smaller than tiff :)

Anyway here's the ROM images, any questions feel free to ask.
CMS-Roms.zip
(78.74 KiB) Downloaded 181 times
Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Fri May 18, 2018 6:28 pm

Thanks, that's something to play with over the weekend :)

So for a true dump of M4 should the files be concatenated? Do you know which banks (0-15) select sockets M2 and M4?
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Fri May 18, 2018 8:16 pm

Pernod wrote:Thanks, that's something to play with over the weekend :)

So for a true dump of M4 should the files be concatenated? Do you know which banks (0-15) select sockets M2 and M4?
Not off the top of my head but IIRC it's in one of the manuals I scanned today, the CPU board has a bunch of links next to each socket that route address lines, power and write enable so that they can take various types of 24 or 28 pin ROM / RAM.

I do believe though that in the default config the M5 rom is at $C000, so is effectively the MOS.

Cheers.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Sat May 19, 2018 1:53 pm

For the address decoding I'll need the PROM at IC8 (74S472), are you able to dump it?

So does this machine run standalone, or does it require the Tube connection to a Beeb? I guess standalone, but the 6502 card can be used as a 2nd processor.

Can we get some better photos of the cards at some point, all I have are those from the ebay listing. I'm specifically looking for crystal values on the cpu (1MHz?), 4080 (12MHz?), hpcc, and fdc cards. On the fdc board are both NMI and IRQ connected? Also X1 on the 4080 card, the schematic looks like 1.8437MHz but a typical value would be 1.8432MHz.

The video boards are quite unique, never seen EF9345 and EF9366 before but MAME already has them implemented so should be able to hook then up.
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Sun May 20, 2018 8:49 am

Pernod wrote:For the address decoding I'll need the PROM at IC8 (74S472), are you able to dump it?
Not directly, at least not yet, I may need to build an adapter to read it as a 2716, I did this with a similar PROM on the DragonPlus board successfully.
So does this machine run standalone, or does it require the Tube connection to a Beeb? I guess standalone, but the 6502 card can be used as a 2nd processor.
That is correct I believe there was a version of the card that could be used as a Co-Pro but this is deffo stand alone.
Can we get some better photos of the cards at some point, all I have are those from the ebay listing. I'm specifically looking for crystal values on the cpu (1MHz?), 4080 (12MHz?), hpcc, and fdc cards. On the fdc board are both NMI and IRQ connected? Also X1 on the 4080 card, the schematic looks like 1.8437MHz but a typical value would be 1.8432MHz.
On the CPU board.
CPU crystal is 1MHz,
RTC crystal is unmarked, but looks like one of the standard 32768Hz crystals typical of RTC circuits.

On the FDC board
8Mhz crystal on what looks like a standard LS04 osilator, I don't have any docs for the FDC board however judging by the chips on there looks like a pretty standard 1770 circuit, let me know if there's anything you want me to tap out.

On the 4080 board.
EF9345 crystal is 12MHz.
6551 crystal is a (huge!) 1.8432Mhz

On the HPCC
X1 which i presume is for the EF9366 is 14MHz
The video boards are quite unique, never seen EF9345 and EF9366 before but MAME already has them implemented so should be able to hook then up.
I have a board for the Atom (both an original and a clone I made), thet uses the EF9345 I believe original was designed back in the day by the Dutch Atom user group. Don't know what else used it tho.

On the subject of the FDC board I notice CMS still exist so I may drop them an email to see if they still have any documentation / software etc relating to this system, there are a whole bunch of empty chip spaces and an empty connector on the floppy card, it would be good to know what they where for.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Sun May 20, 2018 10:02 am

Prime wrote:On the FDC board
8Mhz crystal on what looks like a standard LS04 osilator, I don't have any docs for the FDC board however judging by the chips on there looks like a pretty standard 1770 circuit, let me know if there's anything you want me to tap out.
Just whether either of IRQ and NMI lines are connected.

I have most of what we know now implemented, but no working video output yet.

A few more clarifications:
- How many card slots are on the backplane?
- Is the keyboard standard serial RS232, connected to 4080 board?
- Do both video cards have their own output? Presumably booting the machine uses the 4080 output.
- The CPU board doesn't seem to have any RAM at 0000-7fff, is this correct? There's the MOS M5 is at c000-ffff and all other ROMs, including 32K SWRAM, are paged into 8000-bfff. Could the RAM in M1 be 0000-7fff?
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Mon May 21, 2018 5:25 am

Pernod wrote:
Prime wrote:On the FDC board
8Mhz crystal on what looks like a standard LS04 osilator, I don't have any docs for the FDC board however judging by the chips on there looks like a pretty standard 1770 circuit, let me know if there's anything you want me to tap out.
Just whether either of IRQ and NMI lines are connected.
INTRQ -> IC6-LS244 pin 17
DRQ -> IC6-LS244 pin 2

The outputs from those buffers go to Pin 18 to D7, Pin 3 to D6.

This suggests to me that the DRQ and INTRQ are polled by reading an IO register which triggers the gate on the LS244. There is also an LS273 latch on there which I suspect is the drive control latch.
I have most of what we know now implemented, but no working video output yet.
Excellent.
A few more clarifications:
- How many card slots are on the backplane?
7 slots including the one the CPU card is connected to.
- Is the keyboard standard serial RS232, connected to 4080 board?
Yes acording to the big ringbound manual not yet scanned it's 1200 baud, 1 start 8 data 1 stop. What has become apparent is that the wiring diagram on the 4080 schematic is not acurate for this configuration. The keyboard sends complimentary data signals (RS222??) but I'm not sure if the 4080 board requires this. The keyboard has a Z8 microcontroller in it, but it's soldered in and the ROM is internal so not sure if I would be able to dump it.
- Do both video cards have their own output? Presumably booting the machine uses the 4080 output.
Yes, both have a 6 pin DIN plug similar to the BBC / Acorn one, but (certainly on the 4080 card) it does not have +5V on the centre pin. The 4080 also has a composite output which I am currently using.
- The CPU board doesn't seem to have any RAM at 0000-7fff, is this correct? There's the MOS M5 is at c000-ffff and all other ROMs, including 32K SWRAM, are paged into 8000-bfff. Could the RAM in M1 be 0000-7fff?
I believe that is the case, as there doesn't seem to be directly accessable RAM on any of the other boards.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Mon May 21, 2018 8:57 am

This is from one of the not yet scanned manuals, thought it might help......

Code: Select all

Address range		Use
$FA00-$FBFF			Advanced graphics card
$FC00-$FC0F			CPU card VIA
$FC10-$FC1F			GDP card control register
$FC20-$FC2F			GDP card colour register
$FC30-$FC3F			RTC registers
$FC40-$FC4F			Disk controller registers (1770?)
$FC50-$FC5F			Disk controller drive select register 
$FC60-$FC6F			IEEE controller
$FC70-$FC7F			Memory select register (on CPU card)
$FC80-$FC8F			VIA1 on VIB card
$FC90-$FC9F			VIA2 on VIB card
$FCA0-$FCAF			VIA3 on VIB card
$FCB0-$FCBF			VIA4 on VIB card (printer interface)
$FCC0-$FCCF			Analog card ADC
$FCD0-$FCDF			Analog card DAC
$FCE0-$FCEF			Analog card VIA
$FCF0-$FCFF			Serial interface on VIB card
$FD00-$FD1F			Reserved
$FD20-$FD2F			40/80 column card video processor
$FD30-$FD3F			40/80 column card VIA (printer interface)
$FD40-$FD4F			40/80 column serial interface (keyboard is on here -phs)
$FD50-$FDFF			These locations are reserved for future additions to the CMS
					range of I/O cards. Users wishing to install their own card at
					any of these locations would be advised to contact CMS for 
					advice on future compatibility.

Locations $FE00-$FFFF are OS use only and contain the main system call 
addresses and vectors.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Mon May 21, 2018 9:42 am

Here's what the machine seems to be doing at startup:
- Looks for BASIC in the ROMs by iterating through slot register at &FC70, but only ever checks slots 0-3. The slots checked are hardcoded into MOS at &EC71,x (x=0-3).

- It writes to &8000 a range of values from &00-&0B depending on slot selected at &FC70:
&FC70 = 3 writes &00-&07 to &8000
&FC70 = 2 writes &00-&0B to &8000
&FC70 = 1 writes &00-&03 to &8000
&FC70 = 0 writes &00-&03 to &8000
I don't yet know the significance of this so is not handled, page switching of 27513? Writing to the 27513 only uses 2 bits to page select (&00-&03) so why would it write upto &0B?

- It then proceeds to initialise the screen, but gets stuck writing &51 to &FD28, then waits for status at &FD20 to clear and repeats.

So my current issue seems to be the EF9345. It is only used in three other machines in MAME (Philips VG-5000, Tandy MC-10, Philips Minitel 2), and only the Minitel seems to use the 80 column mode but doesn't work. It looks like it wants to write &20 to all video RAM but never increments to the next location, probably an internal register not being changed. Time to debug the EF9345 I guess :(

Going back to your READER2, could you do some additional tests with it? You've set your socket S% to 4 (same as 0?), this is stored at slot register &FC70. Could you run for S%=0, 1, 2, 3 to see where GDP is found. I suspect S%=0 will be the same as S%=4. You also set X%=B%+&80, the MOS performs AND #&7F on this so shouldn't need the +&80.
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Mon May 21, 2018 7:50 pm

Tweaking the EF9345 shows signs of life, the machine is actually running but needs further video work.
0001.png
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Tue May 22, 2018 12:02 am

Pernod wrote:Tweaking the EF9345 shows signs of life, the machine is actually running but needs further video work.
0001.png
That's deffo beginning to look like what I get on the real hardware, well done.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Tue May 22, 2018 12:04 am

Pernod wrote: Going back to your READER2, could you do some additional tests with it? You've set your socket S% to 4 (same as 0?), this is stored at slot register &FC70. Could you run for S%=0, 1, 2, 3 to see where GDP is found. I suspect S%=0 will be the same as S%=4. You also set X%=B%+&80, the MOS performs AND #&7F on this so shouldn't need the +&80.
I'll have a look tomorrow evening.

I'll also dump what the monitor says is in what slot as that may help too.

The X%=b%+&80 was from my reading of the description of the call in the manual which says :
"X has the page number (ORed with &80 if a multi-page rom)."
I took this to mean that for a multi page rom I had to OR it with &80 to flag that it was multi-page, obviously not if it's ANDing with &7F which will of course reset that :)

Cheers.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am

On the 40/80 card there are a number of links to configure the serial interface. Can you let me know how they are set, and also whether the 6522 IRQ line is linked?
serial_links.JPG
Edit: The keyboard seems to work without any of these links made.

Can you also confirm whether the machine starts in 40 or 80 column mode?
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Tue May 22, 2018 2:10 pm

It's looking better in MODE1, so definitely 80 column mode I need to concentrate on. Clearly the mapping is still in need of attention too.
0002.png
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Tue May 22, 2018 6:51 pm

Pernod wrote:On the 40/80 card there are a number of links to configure the serial interface. Can you let me know how they are set, and also whether the 6522 IRQ line is linked?
serial_links.JPG
Edit: The keyboard seems to work without any of these links made.

Can you also confirm whether the machine starts in 40 or 80 column mode?
L1 is made
L3, assuming link A is at the top, then B,C,D,E are made A is open
L4 is north
L13 is open, doen't even have posts.
L6 is made with a track on bottom of the board
L2 is complicated :)

Machine powers up in 40 col mode.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Tue May 22, 2018 8:08 pm

... and L7, the IRQ line from 6522?

I'm surprised it boots in 40 column mode, the manual states it should boot in 80 mode.
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Sat May 26, 2018 5:13 pm

Prime wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 12:04 am
Pernod wrote: Going back to your READER2, could you do some additional tests with it? You've set your socket S% to 4 (same as 0?), this is stored at slot register &FC70. Could you run for S%=0, 1, 2, 3 to see where GDP is found. I suspect S%=0 will be the same as S%=4. You also set X%=B%+&80, the MOS performs AND #&7F on this so shouldn't need the +&80.
I'll have a look tomorrow evening.
I've put down tools until some mapping clarification is obtained as it can affect so many things. The floppy interface is fully implemented but doesn't save the catalogue to RAM due to mapping. The 80 column mode of the EF9345 definitely works in other machines so am hoping this is mapping related too.
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Tue May 29, 2018 8:53 am

Right sat and did some tests yesterday.
Slot 3: no banks found, all banks just dump repeating $00..$FF which I suspect is just the bus floating.
Slot 2:GDP ROM found in all banks (as it's a 27128, I suspect the bank setting write is being ignored).
Slot 1:same as bank 3
Slot 0:I think when I dumped it I did indeed find it was a copy of 4.

I suspect that it is using 2 bits to select 1 of 4 sockets and then 2 bits to select which bank within the socket, of course that only works for 27513 ROMS, so anything other than them will just appear as mirrored copies of the same rom which will be ignored by the MOS.

I *THINK* link 7 on the 4080 card was aslo made, without a jumper fitted.

I've uploaded some pictures of the CPU, 4080 and Disk cards here :

http://penguin.stats.warwick.ac.uk/~sts ... /Pictures/

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:42 pm

Prime wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 8:53 am
I suspect that it is using 2 bits to select 1 of 4 sockets and then 2 bits to select which bank within the socket, of course that only works for 27513 ROMS, so anything other than them will just appear as mirrored copies of the same rom which will be ignored by the MOS.
I'm tempted to agree with this, but with when I implement this it no longer finds BASIC and starts in the MONITOR. I've been looking at the 27513 datasheet and there's something I'm not sure about. If you select socket 0 page 1 (DFS), then select socket 2 (GDP), then again select socket 0 does it still retain the last page selected (DFS), or revert to page 0 (BASIC)?

I also suspect there's more logic in that PROM that we're not yet aware of.
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:57 am

Could I request some more info...
- photos of the HiRes graphics board, specifically the crystal (probably 1.750MHz)
- photo of HiRes board output. Use *GDP at BASIC prompt and do a few COLOUR changes.
- photo of machine startup
- photo of output from command J in monitor
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:03 pm

Hi Nigel,

I'll look into your other questions later today, but for now I just uploaded a dump of the PROM here :

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=15216#p205360

Cheers.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:15 pm

Pernod wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:57 am
Could I request some more info...
- photos of the HiRes graphics board, specifically the crystal (probably 1.750MHz)
- photo of HiRes board output. Use *GDP at BASIC prompt and do a few COLOUR changes.
- photo of machine startup
- photo of output from command J in monitor
In addition to the above the flash rate on the HiRes board is controlled by a 555 timer. The documentation/schematic (middle bottom) doesn't say what the rate actually is. From the components on the board could you derive for me the actual frequency in Hz?
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:04 pm

Pernod wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:15 pm
Could I request some more info...
- photos of the HiRes graphics board, specifically the crystal (probably 1.750MHz)
Crystal appears to be 14MHz, I suspect IC2, IC3 and IC8 divide it down, will measure what is on the CK pin of the video chip later.
- photo of HiRes board output. Use *GDP at BASIC prompt and do a few COLOUR changes.
- photo of machine startup
- photo of output from command J in monitor
To follow later :)
In addition to the above the flash rate on the HiRes board is controlled by a 555 timer. The documentation/schematic (middle bottom) doesn't say what the rate actually is. From the components on the board could you derive for me the actual frequency in Hz?
R17 = Brown, Black, Yellow = 100K
R16 = Yellow, Violet, Brown = 470R
C10 = 4.7uf (I think)

That would according to this site : http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/555-astable-calculator
give a frequency of about 3Hz I'll measure this when I do the other tests.

Cheers.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:10 pm

Prime wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:04 pm
Crystal appears to be 14MHz, I suspect IC2, IC3 and IC8 divide it down, will measure what is on the CK pin of the video chip later.
I'm assuming a divider by 8.
R17 = Brown, Black, Yellow = 100K
R16 = Yellow, Violet, Brown = 470R
C10 = 4.7uf (I think)

That would according to this site : http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/555-astable-calculator
give a frequency of about 3Hz I'll measure this when I do the other tests.
I'd previously assumed around 2Hz to match the Beeb, 3Hz flashes quicker than a Beeb. I've setup a periodic timer to constantly update the palette for this. I'll await your visual and measured confirmation.

The HiRes board is now mostly functional. A few more questions on it's behaviour:
- When selected with *GDP (no mode) what is it's initial output before selecting a mode. I currently have a flashing white screen. This will clarify whether EF9366 video RAM is initially 0x00 or 0xff.
- Does the screen scroll or wrap in any way when text is off bottom of screen? Currently it's lost off-screen and have to CLS or change MODE to get cursor back on-screen.
0007.png
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:50 pm

Pernod wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:10 pm
The HiRes board is now mostly functional. A few more questions on it's behaviour:
- When selected with *GDP (no mode) what is it's initial output before selecting a mode. I currently have a flashing white screen. This will clarify whether EF9366 video RAM is initially 0x00 or 0xff.
- Does the screen scroll or wrap in any way when text is off bottom of screen? Currently it's lost off-screen and have to CLS or change MODE to get cursor back on-screen.
0007.png
I had a play last night and couldn't get it to display anything :( I'm using a standard Beeb SCART lead which worked** on the Standard video card, I did put a scope on the connector and I am getting a sync signal just no activity on the video (or it's all black!). I'll try having a read of the manual and seeeing if I'm initializing the correct way :)

** Because the standard video card does not have +5V on pin 6 the screen is white on slightly darker white, I'll have to jump a wire accros....it's certainly much better on composite :)

Alas I don't know if I'm going to get that much time to play for a few weeks as I have the Dragon meetup this weekend then the week after next I'm on holiday :) Poke me again in a couple of weeks if you have not heard again. I will bring it along to Cambridge though, if you want to have a poke there :)

Cheers.

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:24 pm

Prime wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:50 pm
I had a play last night and couldn't get it to display anything :( I'm using a standard Beeb SCART lead which worked** on the Standard video card, I did put a scope on the connector and I am getting a sync signal just no activity on the video (or it's all black!). I'll try having a read of the manual and seeeing if I'm initializing the correct way :)
Instead of *GDP try *GDP0, where 0 is the MODE. Using just *GDP simply selects the hires output, which could initially just be black. At the black screen you should be able to type MODE0 to initialise it. Use *TTXT to transfer back to 40/80 output.

I would've liked to attend the Dragon meetup this weekend, just to see a real Plus board in action, but won't make it. Will try harder for our Cambridge meetup.
- Nigel

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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:50 pm

Pernod wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:24 pm
Prime wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:50 pm
I had a play last night and couldn't get it to display anything :( I'm using a standard Beeb SCART lead which worked** on the Standard video card, I did put a scope on the connector and I am getting a sync signal just no activity on the video (or it's all black!). I'll try having a read of the manual and seeeing if I'm initializing the correct way :)
Instead of *GDP try *GDP0, where 0 is the MODE. Using just *GDP simply selects the hires output, which could initially just be black. At the black screen you should be able to type MODE0 to initialise it. Use *TTXT to transfer back to 40/80 output.
Yep I sussed that after reading the manual.....

Anyway it is now working will upload a couple of images I took earlier. Flash period seems to be about a second and a half on / off. Time to mod the video out on the main board to have the +5V on pin 6 :)
I would've liked to attend the Dragon meetup this weekend, just to see a real Plus board in action, but won't make it. Will try harder for our Cambridge meetup.
Remind me nearer the Cambridge meetup and I'll bring one of my Dragons along too :) I actually have one of the original Plus boards and both revisions of John's re-creation.

Cheers.

Phill.

Prime
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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Prime » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:59 pm

Pernod wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:10 pm
- Does the screen scroll or wrap in any way when text is off bottom of screen? Currently it's lost off-screen and have to CLS or change MODE to get cursor back on-screen.
Bearing in mind that these results could partly be down to my monitor not being able to display the full screen.

In modes 0..6 the screen fills up and it doesn't scroll or do anything cursor dissappears off the bottom and as you say you have to cls to get it back.

In mode 7 it stops at the last line, further printing repeatedly over-writes the last line of the screen, hitting esc returns you to the prompt on the last line.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Pernod
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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:16 pm

Prime wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:59 pm
In modes 0..6 the screen fills up and it doesn't scroll or do anything cursor dissappears off the bottom and as you say you have to cls to get it back.

In mode 7 it stops at the last line, further printing repeatedly over-writes the last line of the screen, hitting esc returns you to the prompt on the last line.
Thanks, this pretty much matches the emulation. Your cursor sounds slower than mine though so need to verify that timer. Looks like the EF9366 is fairly well implemented. Wish we had a demo disc for it to test all capabilities, but not likely.

Still no further with the EF9345 80 column mode. Looks good in other machines that use it but not the CMS :?
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Pernod
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Re: CMS system roms.

Post by Pernod » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:54 pm

Is there any brand/model number on the keyboard? I'm currently using a generic ASCII implementation which produces a few different codes, so need to re-implement this.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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