Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

reminisce about bbc micro & electron games like chuckie egg, repton, elite & exileRelated forum: adventures


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BBCNoob
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Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by BBCNoob » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:52 pm

Is there a list that has all the Beeb games that use a co-pro? All I know of is Elite.

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Pernod
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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by Pernod » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:58 pm

- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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danielj
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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by danielj » Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:58 pm

That's the only one AFAIK.

Some discussion here also: viewtopic.php?t=8325

d.

Edit: SNAP! :)

BBCNoob
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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by BBCNoob » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:20 pm

Thanks!

I've been Googling and searching for co-pro. It didn't cross my mine to look for "2nd".

Doesn't seem to be as much as I had hoped out there.

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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by hoglet » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:32 pm

BBCNoob wrote: Doesn't seem to be as much as I had hoped out there.
If you are into more serious programs like Conway's Game of Life, BigEd and I wrote a version for the 6502 Co Pro that makes use of the additional banked memory to allow a very large grid:
http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewto ... 21#p153721

Dave

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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by pau1ie » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:07 pm

Then there is the x86 copro. See this thread for Master 512 Dos+ software, which is mostly (all?) games.
I'm working on http://bbcmicro.co.uk

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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by BigEd » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:29 pm

And the Z80, which runs CP/M, where you can find Zorkish adventures. And Adventure on the 6809 running Flex.

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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by AndyF » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:18 pm

I'd always wanted to see (or write) some games that used the Z80 co-pro, a lot of potential there.

Snapper Z80 Edition anyone ? :D

My Z80 is erm patchy at best however having said that it is still about 100 times better than my 6502, at least. I just feel I half know what I'm 'doing'** with Z80 assembly.

** 'doing' as in generally I realise what I'm asking / trying to do, not B specific as such.
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Adventure games ported across to the BBC (in progress) as soon as I can find some time!

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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by 1024MAK » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:57 pm

@ Andy - go for it :wink:

Actually, thinking about it, even if the existing OS Tube routines are used, it should be possible to port many of the ZX Spectrum / Amstrad CPC / Memotech MTX games where fast graphics / lots of graphic data changes are not a requirement. So adventure games and tactical games spring to mind. Plus maybe some maze and platform and similar games...

And if custom code is used on the Beeb's 6502 CPU, then porting some of the Z80 based games that need fast graphics / lots of graphic data changes may be possible...

Mark

PS, would be even better if coded to take advantage of the VideoNuLA :wink: :D
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by tricky » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:08 pm

I don't know if you have seen some of my "emulators" that run original arcade ROMs (6502 based) on the BBC micro and then patch them to use the beebs sound, joystick, display, but I wanted to add a few more that were mostly z80 based.
Most of these early games (Sprint, Circus, Warlords and RipCord) have a character mapped display with a small number of sprites, so copying only the changed bytes is still possible, even if the whole screen and all sprites have changed.
I have already posted the code for scanning for character changes and handling the sprites on the beeb, it just needs hooking to a suitable co-pro game; and probably quite a bit of fiddling.
I was going to add an "emulator" for Centipede, but decided it was easier to rewrite the whole game on the beeb, as the game ROMs + sprite data wouldn't easily fit.

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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by RobC » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:03 pm

In the January 1985 edition of The Micro User, Peter Johnson mentions a rumour of Acornsoft having a quicker version of "Frogger"/Hopper running on the 6502 co-pro.

As I've said before, I think there's loads of potential for writing/porting games to the Pi co-pro. I've got loads of Spectrum games running at pretty much full speed on my emulator and that's without tailoring the graphics routines to individual games.

I came across this recently (WARNING: NSFW) and it seems that their games have C source code and common libraries. It shouldn't be too hard to port them to the Beeb+Pi.

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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by trixster » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:31 pm

My co-pro question is:

When are we going to see Tube Elite for the Atom + matchbox copro! Come on kees! [-o< :D
A3020 | A3000 | A420/1 | BBC B + 128K RAM/ROM + 20K Shadow + Pi0 + VideoNuLA
Master Turbo + DC + BeebSID | Atom | A4000 060 | A3000 060 | A1200 060 | A500
Atari Falcon 060 | Saturn | PS1 | SNES | CPC6128 | C64 | 3DO | MD | Jaguar

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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by AndyF » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:41 pm

1024MAK wrote:@ Andy - go for it :wink:
I wish my skills were up to it! :oops:
1024MAK wrote:Actually, thinking about it, even if the existing OS Tube routines are used, it should be possible to port many of the ZX Spectrum / Amstrad CPC / Memotech MTX games where fast graphics / lots of graphic data changes are not a requirement. So adventure games and tactical games spring to mind. Plus maybe some maze and platform and similar games...

And if custom code is used on the Beeb's 6502 CPU, then porting some of the Z80 based games that need fast graphics / lots of graphic data changes may be possible...

Mark

PS, would be even better if coded to take advantage of the VideoNuLA :wink: :D
Generally (owning both a Spectrum and an Amstrad but the latter I'm not that familiar with) the ports between these two platforms did not *appear* to be a complete rewrite in most cases, as they both used the Z80 and I would randomly speculate apart from rewriting all the IO routines the OUT and IN operands, as well as the fact one has about 7.5K of screen memory and the other has iirc 16K.

I guess all I'm trying to put together in my head is the 'core logic' of the game code could in theory stay about the same, it would be a question of the I/O writing really.

One slight concern does spring to mind here, the erm (unsure of proper term/word) 'API' to use the Tube itself, although I recall reading I think Acorn encouraged proper calls so that software would run with/without the Tube, as in gfx would work, not many games did most of their own stuff does not appear to work it seems. I'm not sure I'd say this was a case of "as I say, not as I do" though I do not really understand it too well.

I recall reading on this forum the reason for programmers not using the 'API' was a speed concern as it was slow ? :-k , this could be a serious factor if a game was ported over perhaps. As if that was used then most software would just work 'as is' ? 6502 co-pro in this example.

Then again if its only going to run with a Z80 I suppose the 'API' can be ignored and it can simply be directly driven as such, the same way existing games do now ?

That may or may not make much sense, sorry. :oops:
Andy

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Adventure games ported across to the BBC (in progress) as soon as I can find some time!

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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by 1024MAK » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:35 pm

I'm primarily a hardware tinkerer rather than a assembly coder (although I have written bits and pieces of machine code for both the Z80 and the 6502, and many BASIC and some other high level language programs).

But my thoughts are: as the program is designed to only run on a Z80 second processor, the Z80 side can be custom code.
The code running on the Beeb's 6502 can be either the standard Acorn Tube code (in which case the Z80 has to communicate commands and data that the 6502 Tube code will understand). Or the Beeb can run custom 6502 code to talk via the Tube to code running on the Z80.

Once the game has loaded into the Z80 second processor, apart from maybe a bit of handshaking and keyboard
and/or joystick data, it will be mostly one way traffic from the Z80 to the Beeb's 6502 anyway (graphic and sound data).

Mark
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Re: Is there a list of games that use co-pros?

Post by Wouter Scholten » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:06 am

BBCNoob wrote:Is there a list that has all the Beeb games that use a co-pro? All I know of is Elite.
I wrote a reversi board game ca. 1985-1986 (not finished in the sense that it didn't use time to control depth search etc., so depth is fixed) which I modified to run on the 6502 2p in 1987. I had no docs except the 6502 2p user guide, so I disassembled the tube os to see what can be done in what way, e.g. transferring a block of data from 2p to BBC. The drawing code uses direct screen access and runs in the BBC, the tree searching runs in the 2p. It doesn't use the 2p efficiently as in using available memory to store stuff, it is just to use the speed of the 2p. I put a newly assembled version of my reversi on my site long ago, should be available from a bbc lives backup. In 1995 I assembled it again to put on my site to make it run on both: I made the load/exec adresses such that it has 2p loading addresses that are compatible with the memory map of the BBC, so the high bytes get ignored if no 2p is attached and in that case the program runs just in the BBC micro.

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