Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by guddler » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:06 am

I’ve got a tiny little serial to Bluetooth module. I’ve had it so long I can’t remember how it works but my next attempt was going to be to try that. I should get my level shifter next week so I’ll look into it after than.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by Elminster » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:10 am

danielj wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:48 am
The freefi would be complete overkill - you don't need RS232 level anything for this. Just the esp module. A NodeMCU would be easier.
I meant if you already had a freewifi and using it for you stuff. You could have a serial console mode (you trying to dodge feature requests again!)
Last edited by Elminster on Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by danielj » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:30 am

Absolutely :)

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by IanS » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:09 pm

hoglet wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:48 pm
I just wanted to bring it to people's attention that Mark Haysman (Retroclinic) is now producing his own PiTubeDirect level shifters:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ACORN-BBC-MO ... 3779798184
I see IFEL are also doing a version for the Master.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Acorn-BBC-Ma ... 3463222058

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by davidb » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:55 pm

I feel slightly bad for not reading the 37 pages of discussion for this project before asking this... :oops: :^o

How feasible would it be to reverse the host/co-pro communication, passing VDU calls (for example) from the host to the co-pro for display via the Pi's HDMI output? Has this already been done?

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by Elminster » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:06 pm

Would it not just be easier to use Dave's Pi RGB interface? Or are you thinking to use an existing Pi so only needing one rather than 2?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14430&start=270&hilit=hdmi+rgb

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by davidb » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:26 pm

No, I was thinking that you might be able to implement enhanced (and normal) screen modes on the Pi and access them via standard system calls. You could maybe define new graphics calls for sprites and control them from BASIC.

Of course, you could do that all on just the Pi but it would be interesting to be controlling it from some classic hardware. :)

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:59 pm

davidb wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:55 pm
How feasible would it be to reverse the host/co-pro communication, passing VDU calls (for example) from the host to the co-pro for display via the Pi's HDMI output? Has this already been done?
We did have a go at this in an older version of PiTubeDirect, before the GPU was used for all the tube handling.

It's parked in a branch named atom_vdu:
https://github.com/hoglet67/PiTubeDirect/tree/atom_vdu

See this thread, starting at this post:
viewtopic.php?p=140141#p140141

Roland has made quite extensive use of this on his Atom:
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=12820

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by davidb » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:32 pm

I thought I'd seen something before. That seems very useful for Atom users! :D

If the Tube handling takes up the GPU's time then perhaps a non-Tube-oriented version might be the way to go. But that's a topic for another thread. :D

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by BeebMaster » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm

I've just got mine going for the first time today, it's a very amazing thing. There are lots of things I'd like to know which haven't been immediately obvious from this thread or the "Wiki", any thoughts on the following would be much appreciated!

1. I edited the config.txt file to comment out the kernel lines for RPi2 and RPi3 as I am using RPiZero. Is that even necessary?
2. Is it possible to emulate the 65C102 internal co-processor (with the same start up message)?
3. Is it possible to emulate the 80186? (also with 512K)? I am seeing 80286 with 960K.
4. Which processors support *FX 151,228,n to change the speed to nMHz?
5. What values can be used for this? I tried various up to 200 but the maximum speed reported was about 53MHz.
6. Is there a less clunky way to re-start the PiTube when it has been disabled with *FX 151,230,14 (,10 also seems to have the same effect)? On a Master it's necessary to *CONFIGURE NOTUBE; BREAK; *FX151,230,n<>14; BREAK; *CONFIGURE TUBE; BREAK to get it back again.
7. As there's already some software in RAM when using OLD, are there any plans for custom code to be pre-loaded at start-up? e.g. dropping a file onto the SD card which is then copied to RAM when a processor is selected? That way you could have your favourite game loaded (assuming it's just one file) or have CPM in Z80 mode, or GEM in Master 512 mode, pre-loaded at power-on.
8. Is there an OS call which can be used to report which processor is selected, and what speed is running?
9. Do any of the ARM processors support re-locatable modules?
Image

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:38 pm

BeebMaster wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm
1. I edited the config.txt file to comment out the kernel lines for RPi2 and RPi3 as I am using RPiZero. Is that even necessary?
No, they are ignored.
BeebMaster wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm
2. Is it possible to emulate the 65C102 internal co-processor (with the same start up message)?
I think the only difference is the startup message.
BeebMaster wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm
3. Is it possible to emulate the 80186? (also with 512K)? I am seeing 80286 with 960K.
It might be possible to make the memory size for the 80186 configurable. We do that already for the NS32K I think.
BeebMaster wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm
4. Which processors support *FX 151,228,n to change the speed to nMHz?
Only the 65C02, when selected as Co Pro 1.
BeebMaster wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm
5. What values can be used for this? I tried various up to 200 but the maximum speed reported was about 53MHz.
That sounds about right. Maybe Dominic can answer more accurately.
BeebMaster wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm
6. Is there a less clunky way to re-start the PiTube when it has been disabled with *FX 151,230,14 (,10 also seems to have the same effect)? On a Master it's necessary to *CONFIGURE NOTUBE; BREAK; *FX151,230,n<>14; BREAK; *CONFIGURE TUBE; BREAK to get it back again.
On the Master, because of the internal and external Tubes, it get complicated and there are some pathological cases. It's better in this case to just use *CONFIG NOTUBE.
BeebMaster wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm
7. As there's already some software in RAM when using OLD, are there any plans for custom code to be pre-loaded at start-up? e.g. dropping a file onto the SD card which is then copied to RAM when a processor is selected? That way you could have your favourite game loaded (assuming it's just one file) or have CPM in Z80 mode, or GEM in Master 512 mode, pre-loaded at power-on.
No plans for this.

We don't currently have the ability to read arbitrary files from the SD card, and it's actually quite hard.
BeebMaster wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm
8. Is there an OS call which can be used to report which processor is selected, and what speed is running?
Not that I'm aware of.
BeebMaster wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm
9. Do any of the ARM processors support re-locatable modules?
I take it you mean the Native ARM Co Pro (Co Pro 15) that provides a RISCOS-like environment?

The answer is not at the moment.

This Co Pro is definitely still a work in progress, and probably it would need someone else to do this (i.e. it's not something that I'm planning to do).

Do feel free to dump and/all of these into Github as separate feature requests:
https://github.com/hoglet67/PiTubeDirect/issues

Dave

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by dp11 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:42 pm

65c02 variable speed was mainly to get 3 and 4MHz CPUs . It might get a bit faster in future if I have a look at the code a bit more.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by IanB » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:00 am

I've been testing out the 80286 co pro and it crashes when trying to boot my existing hard drive installation of DOS Plus 1.2 which works OK on a real 80186 co-pro with 512K:
dosplus1-20.jpg

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by dp11 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:07 am

Which build are you using? If you aren't using egg-eater-rc0 can you try that?

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:57 am

IanB wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:00 am
I've been testing out the 80286 co pro and it crashes when trying to boot my existing hard drive installation of DOS Plus 1.2 which works OK on a real 80186 co-pro with 512K.
This is actually an issue I investigated at ABUG in June.

DOS 1.2 requires the amount of memory to be an integer multiple of 128KB.

I thought I had fixed that, but seems I forgot to push that.

I'll do that today.

Dave

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:52 am

Ian,
IanB wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:00 am
I've been testing out the 80286 co pro and it crashes when trying to boot my existing hard drive installation of DOS Plus 1.2 which works OK on a real 80186 co-pro with 512K:
I've just pushed a commit to the egg-eater-dev branch that should fix this. It sets the default memory value to 896KB.

You're setup I think to build from source. You then just need to copy the kernel over.

If you get a chance, it would be great if you could try it.
BeebMaster wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:04 pm
3. Is it possible to emulate the 80186? (also with 512K)? I am seeing 80286 with 960K.
I've also added support for changing the memory size using *FX, specifically:

Code: Select all

*FX 151,226,1
*FX 151,228,N
The first *FX sets Co Pro "Command" to <Set Memory Size>. The second *FX actually changes the memory size.

N is in units of 64KB, for example:
- N=8 will give a 512KB system
- N=12 will give a 768KB system
- N=14 will give a 896KB system
- N=15 will give a 960KB system (DOS Plus 1.2 will fail at this size)

Other values will work as well, but should be considered unsupported, and possibly DOS Plus will fail to boot. It get's complicated because of the alias of the upper memory bank at 0x80000-0xBFFFF.

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by IanB » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:15 pm

hoglet wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:52 am
I've just pushed a commit to the egg-eater-dev branch that should fix this. It sets the default memory value to 896KB.
You're setup I think to build from source. You then just need to copy the kernel over.
If you get a chance, it would be great if you could try it.
I built that and it does fix it but only when the memory is set to 512K, all other larger sizes including 640K crash.
Maybe you should put a command line switch in to adjust the memory and set it back to 960K as the default.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:42 pm

Hi Ian,
IanB wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:15 pm
I built that and it does fix it but only when the memory is set to 512K, all other larger sizes including 640K crash.
Maybe you should put a command line switch in to adjust the memory and set it back to 960K as the default.
Interesting, that's not what I found at ABUG. I checked my notes, and definitely 960KB crashed, where as 896KB worked. I didn't test any other sizes at that time.

So I just re-ran the test at all the different memory sizes and found:

Code: Select all

N= 8 512KB - crashes
N= 9 576KB - crashes
N=10 640KB - crashes
N=11 704KB - crashes
N=12 768KB - crashes
N=13 832KB - crashes
N=14 896KB - works
N=15 960KB - crashes
The version of DOS Plus I'm using (which came from B-Em) has the following versions:

Code: Select all

Boot strap loader: 19-Mar-86
Acorn Master 512, DOS Plus 1.2
Copyright (C) Digital Research 1985, 1986
80186 Xios Ver 1.00, Acorn Computers 1986
BTW, This is booting from a real ADFS Floppy.

Is there something different about my test configuration to yours?

Dave

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by IanB » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:55 pm

hoglet wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:42 pm
N= 8 512KB - crashes
Is yours crashing with the official memory size? That doesn't seem right.
hoglet wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:42 pm
Is there something different about my test configuration to yours?
All the same as yours except:
Bootstrap loader 21-Apr-1986

Also I'm booting from a hard drive install (created back in the 1980s).

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:19 pm

I agree crashing at 512KB doesn't seem right.

Any chance you could test the B-Em image on a real Master 512:
https://github.com/stardot/b-em/blob/ma ... 0Boot).img

You would need to write it onto a real floppy using Omniflop I think.

I've just found a different DOS Plus 1.2 image:
http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbcco ... isks-1.zip

Code: Select all

Boot strap loader: 16-July-86
Acorn Master 512, Xios Ver 1.01
Copyright Acorn Computers 1986
DOS Plus Version 1.2
Copyright Digital Research (c) 1985, 1986
Testing this I get:

Code: Select all

N= 8 512KB - works
N= 9 576KB - works
N=10 640KB - works
N=11 704KB - works
N=12 768KB - works
N=13 832KB - works
N=14 896KB - works
N=15 960KB - works
Dave

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by IanB » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:29 pm

hoglet wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:19 pm
Any chance you could test the B-Em image on a real Master 512:
https://github.com/stardot/b-em/blob/ma ... 0Boot).img
You would need to write it onto a real floppy using Omniflop I think.
That one crashes on real 512K hardware.

BTW It's actually an interleaved adl, not a sequential img but I tried writing it both ways to be sure and it just crashed in different ways.
When written as an adl it crashed with the repeated errors like my version.
hoglet wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:19 pm
I've just found a different DOS Plus 1.2 image:
http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbcco ... isks-1.zip
Both DOS Plus 1.2 (M512_X.ADL) and DOS Plus 2.1 (M512_1.ADL) boot OK on my real hardware

As the first one from B-Em does work at one size (896K) like mine (512K), perhaps it's a patched version of a 512K limited one so that it worked with a RAM expansion?

BTW the boot ROM on my system is 1.00 and it's 1.01 on the Pi one.

Edit: I found my DOS plus 1.2 installation set:
Master 512 DOS Plus 1.2 (21-Apr-86).zip
(1.13 MiB) Downloaded 12 times
Last edited by IanB on Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:03 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by IanB » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:06 am

davidb wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:26 pm
No, I was thinking that you might be able to implement enhanced (and normal) screen modes on the Pi and access them via standard system calls. You could maybe define new graphics calls for sprites and control them from BASIC.

Of course, you could do that all on just the Pi but it would be interesting to be controlling it from some classic hardware. :)
That's exactly what the Prisma 3 does. See here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15650

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:05 am

IanB wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:29 pm
That one crashes on real 512K hardware.
Thank you so much for testing this. You saved me continuing a massive wild goose chase.

Dave

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:39 am

IanB wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:29 pm
As the first one from B-Em does work at one size (896K) like mine (512K), perhaps it's a patched version of a 512K limited one so that it worked with a RAM expansion?
I've tested your disk image, and confirm on PiTubeDirect it also works at just one size (512KB).

So I started comparing it to the one shipped with B-Em. I was slightly thrown by the different boot loader date, but in fact both disks contain both boot loaders:

Code: Select all

dmb@quadhog:~/Downloads/DosPlus1.2$ strings 1.adl | grep loader | sort | uniq
Boot strap loader [19-Mar-86]
Boot strap loader [21-Apr-86]

dmb@quadhog:~/Downloads/DosPlus1.2$ strings 2.adl | grep loader | sort | uniq
Boot strap loader [19-Mar-86]
Boot strap loader [21-Apr-86]
I think the March version is actually the floppy-only boot loader and the April version is the floppy/hard disk boot loader.

Next, I did a binary compare:

Code: Select all

dmb@quadhog:~/Downloads/DosPlus1.2$ diff 1.hex 2.hex 
6780c6780
< 0001a7b0  00 02 74 08 81 3e 97 2c  00 04 75 01 c3 9c 06 fc  |..t..>.,..u.....|
---
> 0001a7b0  80 03 74 08 81 3e 97 2c  00 04 75 01 c3 9c 06 fc  |..t..>.,..u.....|
Only two bytes different:
- Your version: 00 02
- B-Em version 80 03

That certainly looks like the memory size.

So I think everything is now explained:

The first DOS Plus release (DOS Plus 1.2, boot loader 19-Mar-86/21-Apr-86) contains Xios 1.00 that supports only a fixed memory size. You have an original disk that works with the 512KB on original hardware. B-Em includes a patched version that works with 896KB, and won't work on original hardware.

The next DOS Plus release (DOS Plus 1.2, boot loader 16-July-86/17-July-86) contains Xios 1.01 that supports any memory size. There is a copy of this on YellowPig's site:
http://www.cowsarenotpurple.co.uk/bbcco ... isks-1.zip (called M512_X.ADL).

The final DOS Plus release (DOS Plus 2.1, boot loader 16-July-86/17-July-86) contains Xios 1.03 that also supports any memory size. There is also a copy of this YelloPig's archive (same link as above, called M512_1.ADL).

So I think it's definitely worth having added the *FX call to make the memory configurable.

I'm inclined to leave the default at 896KB, as that matches B-Em.

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by fordp » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:10 am

fordp wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:21 pm
Well we have not pushed the boundaries of the Native ARM Copro for a while.

I did some digging and found this:
https://www.riscosopen.org:8443/forum/f ... er_page=50

It is good to dream ;)

It makes some reference to BBC Basic with VFP (Hardware Floating Point)
Has anybody tried this:
https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/3/topics/9081
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:01 pm

Hello all,

Just in time for Christmas we have the final EggEater release:
https://github.com/hoglet67/PiTubeDirec ... /egg-eater

Changes since Diamondback...

Features:

  • Added support for the new Raspberry Pi 3 A+ model
  • Added support for the new Raspberry Pi 3 B+ model
  • Simplified config.txt to also support Raspberry Pi ZeroW out of the box
  • Performance improvements to 65C02 Co Pro (291.7MHz for PiZero and 336MHz for RPi3B+)
  • Added a new PDP-11 Co Processor (in slot 11)
  • Added full debugger support for the PDP-11 Co Processor
  • 80x86 Co Pro - memory size can be configured with *FX
  • Debugger improvements:
    • Improved help command
    • Added base command (output in hex or octal)
    • Added width command (allows 8-bit, 16-bit or 32-bit memory accesses)
    • Added an optional end address to dis and mem commands
    • Clean out debugger state when switching between Co Processors
    • Better error reporting
    • Improvements to ARM Disassembler
Fixes:
  • Native ARM Co Processor now implements type 6/7 transfers
  • Some of the Co Processors were incorrectly named in the debugger
  • 80x86 Co Pro: default memory size 896KB (improves compatibility with early versions of DOS Plus)
  • Static Analysis tidying up
Happy holidays,

Dave and the rest of the PiTubeDirect Team (Ed and Dominic)

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by BigEd » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:06 pm

Great Christmas present Dave! Especially for speed freaks with a Pi3, and for PDP-11 fans!

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by JackLeather » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:33 pm

Hi, I have recently got my hands on a level-shifter, pi zero w and pitubedirect, all which work excellently with my BBC B - let me praise you for your hard work =D>

I want to put it all in a project box and extended the activity LED via a GPIO pin. I read that I could add something like this to /boot/config.txt

Code: Select all

dtparam=act_led_gpio=21
This should allow me to hook up an LED (and resistor) to GPIO 21.

Will this work? Is there an easier way?

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by dp11 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:51 pm

being bare metal we don't support device tree.

A light pipe would be the simplest way. In real use I don't think most people use the LED.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by JackLeather » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:17 pm

dp11 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:51 pm
being bare metal we don't support device tree.

A light pipe would be the simplest way. In real use I don't think most people use the LED.
Thanks, I guessed that might be the case!

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