BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

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ArbiterDiscmaster
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BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by ArbiterDiscmaster » Tue May 24, 2016 12:10 pm

Hi all.
I bought something from an eBay sale some months ago which I think is rather special. It is a Sony Arbiter Discmaster/Discmonitor jukebox which used 2 BBC computers and memory cards to operate it. I believe a very early, if not the first CD jukebox which has a small CRT monitor and touch screen to operate it, also a 60 disc CD changer which was popularly used by radio stations in banks to hold their whole playlists.
I've refurbished the wall unit, and I'm sure you'll agree it looks great. I have the hideaway box which is rather nondescript and all related cables, but my knowledge of BBC is just not good enough to want to just have a go at operating it.
The whole lot is a great bit of retro technology and would look absolutely great in any man-cave, I just wish I had the space. I have never seen one of these for sale before so appears they are very rare, there is little information about them available on-line, but I have a great bonus of a full engineering manual and instructions.
I live in Canterbury and am just looking to cover what I paid for the items. If you are interested please let me know, it would be a pity to have to just throw away such a special bit of kit!
Attachments
IMG_0624.JPG
CD unit, fully working
IMG_0621.JPG
Controller of hideaway unit
IMG_0633.JPG
Inside of wall unit
IMG_0161.JPG
Wall unit

ArbiterDiscmaster
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by ArbiterDiscmaster » Tue May 24, 2016 12:12 pm

Please drop me a line on the wall or a PM if you can take it off my hands, best offer gets it, I'm not expecting a Kings ransom!

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paulv
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by paulv » Tue May 24, 2016 1:37 pm

daveejhitchens wrote:We made jukeboxes
Are these the ones Dave used to make?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5295&p=48921&hilit=jukebox

Paul

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tricky
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by tricky » Tue May 24, 2016 4:51 pm

I have mentioned ina few posts thati used to live in Devon and worked for associated leisure, for whom i installed a few arbiter jukeboxes as per your picture, although, i think most were the standalone variety with a massive circular top at about 30°
I seem to remember that we programmed the cd list by reprogramming some eproms, but i could be wrong.
The touch controls were a nightmare as a layer of beer on the glass would cause the "buttons". to see presses all the time.

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daveejhitchins
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Tue May 24, 2016 5:17 pm

Oh! It's a long time since I've seen one of those. They were made by AMS Ltd (Amusement Machine Services) of Heckmondwike, in west Yorkshire. Notice the ABRs . . . As well as that model they went on to build the ones I have - The Fender Juke Box. Arbiter Leasure is the sole Fender importer for this country. They dabbled in all sorts of things, at the time. As the Fender was in service from about 1991 that model will, probably, pre-date it, however, there would have been some overlap, I suspect.

When you think they made around 5000 Fenders and goodness knows how many of the Master controlled models . . . And each needed two ABRs and two spares :D Actually . . . We didn't supply all of them - probably about a third. As some point we sold a licence to AMS, as we couldn't keep-up with the production and testing!

The Sony CD player is the same as in the Fender. I had to repair mine about 5 years ago . . . On of the position detectors failed. Took me months to find replacements, finally found them, via a broker, in Australia. Had to buy 20 of the things :?

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
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ArbiterDiscmaster
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by ArbiterDiscmaster » Wed May 25, 2016 5:43 pm

Well its great to see that some people recognise the unit.
I've had a good look at the engineer manual and yes, it appears you programs the eprom (hope i got the terminology correct) on the master unit, and then copy it to take the memory over to the wall unit. If they are not the same then you would request a song and a different would play. I have tested the CD changer with the small buttons on the PCB and it appears to move just right, a pity I hadn't put it on here earlier, or you wouldn't have had to buy all those parts!

I do think it could be at home in a man-cave or a great talking piece for the living room as the wall unit is in such nice shape.
I have been thinking of just stripping it all out and fitting a modern touch screen jukebox inside it but think it would be such a waste of a rare piece.

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by ArbiterDiscmaster » Wed May 25, 2016 5:46 pm

Oh, and I was looking at replacing the battery in the battery backed cards but can't seem to find a suitable replacement, can anyone help?
I have 3, which I think is all that was required to operate it properly.

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flynnjs
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by flynnjs » Wed May 25, 2016 9:43 pm

Trying to work out what is going on with the blue/brown wires coming from
the red battery pack... I don't think it's actually wired as it looks :mrgreen:

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by jgharston » Thu May 26, 2016 12:57 am

Ooo, there was one of those in my university bar. When I saw it I instantly realised it was controlled by a Master inside it and wanted to open it up and see what was there.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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Pernod
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Pernod » Thu May 26, 2016 9:14 am

Looks like an interesting emulation target for MAME. Would be great if whoever ends up with this could dump ROMs/cartridges and scan the engineers manual.
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by ArbiterDiscmaster » Fri May 27, 2016 3:10 pm

I'd scan the manual myself but my scanner is slow and its a pretty big manual.
I don't expect there to be a copyright issue!

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by johnkenyon » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:36 am

Looks like what we used to call an Arbiter Jukebox - I worked at Hazel Grove Music who used to make wallboxes, jukeboxes and pool tables in the very early '90s.
We produced a version of software for the HGM Mk6 jukebox which would control an Arbiter hideaway.

The remote control (two way) from the wallbox eventually ended up at the RS423 port.
The two way communication allowed the wallbox to show the disc and track being played.

The only other thing I remember was that most wallboxes ran off 24 or 28VAC (the tranformers had a tapped primary), and the florescent light was driven by a 240 secondary winding. The OP's wallbox could be different but looking at the PSU board the 5 way terminal block appears to have the connections to terminals 4 & 5 doubled/trippled up which makes me think that its more likely than not that it runs off 28v.

One bug we did find in the HW design was that there was reset circuit on the addon board, using a monostable which wouldn't trigger if the power was cycled on and off quickly...

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:47 pm

Picked these up, today :D
Control Master 128.jpg
Sony Player.jpg
Wall Box 1.jpg
Wall Box 2.jpg
I'll add details to this thread as and when I get time to copy everything. Going through the documents the only things that are missing are the Cartridge Data Maps and the Library Software. However, I already have the Cartridge Data Maps from when we had to modify it for the Fender machine, which has more functionally. The Library software is detailed, in the documentation, so I guess that's a project in itself . . . I also need this software for the Fender too - Dual purpose :wink:

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Pernod » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:31 am

Awesome, looking forward to dumps, scans, whatever info :D
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:01 am

Here's the first ROM dump . . . This one is from the Main (hideaway, in this case) controller.
Abitter DiscMaster 3V03.bin.zip
(8.71 KiB) Downloaded 46 times
Dave H :D
Last edited by daveejhitchins on Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by danielj » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:51 am

Err, Dave - that's the IDE schematic! :D

d.

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by JonC » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:07 am

:lol: :lol: :lol: =D>

Too many projects on the go methinks!
Jon
Image

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daveejhitchins
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:07 pm

danielj wrote:Err, Dave - that's the IDE schematic! :D

d.
Ooooops! Sorry, corrected . . .

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Pernod » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:31 am

It looks nice...
0000.png
Is it a standard MOS 3.20 in there?
Hope the manual contains some good technical detail.
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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daveejhitchins
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:52 am

Pernod wrote:Is it a standard MOS 3.20 in there?
Hope the manual contains some good technical detail.
I've not checked the MOS, as yet . . . Will report back later.

Re the Manual . . . At some point I'll get it scanned, including the Manual for the Fender Jukebox along with any documentation I have for that - specifically the Cartridge mapping details which, IIRC, covers both models.

Dave H :D

p.s. Thanks for the front screen, I'd not seen that before.
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Pernod » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:42 pm

Hi Dave, did you ever get around to spending any more time on this?

Would really like manuals and dumps of the cartridges to progress emulation. Would be awesome to get beyond the 'DATA CARTRIDGE NOT FOUND' stage.
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:57 pm

Pernod wrote:Hi Dave, did you ever get around to spending any more time on this?
I have managed to mount the wall Box :roll: and started to look for the Data Cartridge format. I know I have this somewhere as we used it as the basis for the new version. I'm not sure we made it 'backwards' compatible, though! I can dump a version of the new format and you can see if if that works.
Pernod wrote:Would really like manuals and dumps of the cartridges to progress emulation. Would be awesome to get beyond the 'DATA CARTRIDGE NOT FOUND' stage.
Mrs H is away for a week, from the 14th. Remind me then and I'll see what I can do.

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Pernod » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:11 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:Mrs H is away for a week, from the 14th. Remind me then and I'll see what I can do.

Dave H :D
Thanks, will do. I was hoping there may have been something salvageable from the existing cartridges, for an authentic retro track selection, but guess not.
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:45 am

Pernod wrote:I was hoping there may have been something salvageable from the existing cartridges, for an authentic retro track selection, but guess not.
Unfortunately the batteries in all three ABRs had severe battery rot. They've had a good wash with white vinegar but they need more work. I'll probably pop them in the dishwasher, when Mrs H's away :wink:

Changing subject, slightly, I've been trying to find other, similar, Jukeboxes from the same company (AMS Ltd. of Heckmondwike) - especially the Fender version - Nothing! I've even spoken to Jukebox collectors and repairers without any luck. Spoke to someone at Arbitter Leisure (Fender importers and the distributer of both versions of the Jukebox) - they informed me they'd 'dumped' everything many years ago :shock: :(

So if anyone come across one of these, I'd be grateful if you would let me know.

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:52 am

There you go . . . Found a copy of the cartridge used in my Fender. Note the B & T - bottom and top image e.g. B=0 or 2 T=1 or 3.

See what you can do with it. Did you look at the code and decide what the software was looking for, when it says no cartridge found? It may also look for the Sony CD player. . .

Dave H :D
Fender original Cartridge Images.ssd.zip
(34.44 KiB) Downloaded 12 times
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Pernod » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:30 pm

The Fender cartridge wasn't recognised unfortunately, so will need to really look into the code to see what it's looking for.

I did find a service mode though:
0003.png
0001.png
- Nigel

BBC Model B, ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:12 pm

Here you go . . . Found the file I was thinking about:

"DMS.h - global data definitions + cart format definitions"

See what you can make of it!

You may still have to look through the code to find out what it's checking for, when looking for the cartridge!

Dave H :D
DMS.H.zip
(7.09 KiB) Downloaded 18 times
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:21 pm

Found:
* $80-$84 "DATA"+$0D used by previous systems to recognise that the cartridge data is valid; ignored by Fender system.

This is what you may have to add to the image I sent you . . .

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Pernod » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:36 pm

The Fender cartridge doesn't have the DATA identifier, so I added it.

The service mode now gives:
0000.png
I no longer get the DATA CARTRIDGE NOT FOUND message so progress is made :D Just a black screen so probably waiting for peripheral response.

To be continued ...
Last edited by Pernod on Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Nigel

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:07 pm

=D> Looks like you're in a 'service' menu there! The customer would never see the coinage . . .

I've had a further 'squint' at the "DMS.h - global data definitions + cart format definitions" and it looks like there are many instances of OLD format.

Re the looking for something else . . . probably input from the User Port.

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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