Econet over Serial

mm67 · Post by **mm67** » Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:34 pm

I've been working on and off on a version of the network filing system which will work over the serial port (RS423) rather than Econet, the goal being that it has exactly the same functionality, just slower.

Lot's of bits have to work together, and I finally have got a version that sort of works.

The ROM is pretty much complete. (https://github.com/mmbeeb/NFS_SERIAL).

The beeb needs to connect to a machine running SPAUN (a Linux program that bridges the SP (serial) and AUN worlds).
This is a bit rough at the moment so needs more work. (https://github.com/mmbeeb/SPAUN)

Links to couple of crappy videos, but they give an idea of speed etc:
https://youtu.be/ZkIJ102Y3IU
https://youtu.be/D-NHF_n2KS4

And attached is a copy of the disk in the first video. It just contains the ROM (but the non-debug version) and a loader.

NFS-S.ssd: nfs disk; (17.25 KiB) Downloaded 25 times

: the beeb

iainfm · Post by **iainfm** » Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:25 pm

Very nice!

KenLowe · Post by **KenLowe** » Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:06 pm

mm67 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:34 pm The beeb needs to connect to a machine running SPAUN (a Linux program that bridges the SP (serial) and AUN worlds).

Looks good. Do you think the beeb could connect to a RPi via serial? I'm thinking about interoperability with the PiBridge / PiFS:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22868&start=780

Alan00 · Post by **Alan00** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 2:08 am

I'm trying to do the same thing, your project looks and works better than what I was trying to acheive.
I replaced my faulty serial ULA with an esp8266 and I have a wire from the ADC clocking the serial at 1Mhz which gives me 15625 baud.
My plan is to use the unused socket for the econet IC, I have built a prototype board and it works as a WiFi serial port.
I have set up a Raspberry Pi with Telnet and can access the command prompt and that was the route I was going.
I will give your project ago, I can use my esp8266 programmer as a serial port on my PC, I just need to install linux on my PC.

shifters74 · Post by **shifters74** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:43 am

Hi,

how are you connecting the beeb serial to the PC - to an actual old PC serial port or a serial to usb converter?

Can you connect more than 1 beeb to the PC in this way to create a network (and if so can the beebs then talk to each other?)

I have always been interested in a beeb network but econet hardware is so rare and expensive its difficult to justify it but this could be a cheaper usable alternative.

Nice vids btw even if shot hand held!

cheers

shifters

BeebMaster · Post by **BeebMaster** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:06 am

Interesting idea, does the Beeb not need any part of the Econet interface, and does the "network" not need Clock & Terminators?

What about multiple stations, can Beebs communicate with each other with this setup?

Econet hardware is not all that rare nowadays, you can find links on here for buying BBC B Econet kits, Master modules, Clock, socket box boards, terminators. Expense is another matter. I checked last week and TI have put the price of 75159 up again!

jgharston · Post by **jgharston** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:20 pm

Well done. It's certainly an interestign project. I did something similar, adding serial drivers to NFS instead of replacing them. link. It's very useful that all the low-level network driving code goes through a jump block within the NFS ROM, so in the main all you need to do is intercept the physical layer code, and the networking, filing system, printer system, etc. code is all untocuhed.

mm67 · Post by **mm67** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:12 pm

Thanks all,

Do you think the beeb could connect to a RPi via serial?

The reason I did spaun (and FSEM) in linux was with the idea of eventually running it on a RPi, using a RS232 to TTL thingy.

I am using FSEM2 for my fileserver. I've just tried using BeebEm as the fileserver, but it wasn't too happy. FSEM is more forgiving on timing, only retransmitting every 1 second, and it keeps the same AUN handle so duplicates can be discarded, whereas BeebEm (behaving properly because it's only doing what the Filer says) waits a fraction of a second and uses a different handle. Can't see why it can't (if it doesn't already) be made to work with PiFS. I need to add a 'map' file with station IP/ports.

I just need to install linux on my PC

I just use Cygwin64. [There are other versions.]

how are you connecting the beeb serial to the PC

Just using a cheap three wire cable, one end replaced with a din plug. My PC has a real serial port.

Can you connect more than 1 beeb to the PC

I suppose it depends how many serial ports the PC has, or how many PCs you have. Remember it's using IP.

Nice vids btw even if shot hand held!

Yep, one hand camera action, the other typing.

Econet hardware is not all that rare nowadays

I agree, if you want the "authentic experience" then a real econet is the way to go.

: The cable

mm67 · Post by **mm67** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:19 pm

It's very useful that all the low-level network driving code goes through a jump block within the NFS ROM

Certainly is. I guess it was a different chap's (or chapess's) job to do the hardware code.

shifters74 · Post by **shifters74** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:44 pm

Can you connect more than 1 beeb to the PC
I suppose it depends how many serial ports the PC has, or how many PCs you have. Remember it's using IP.

Apologies for the stupid questions (my ignorance of econet here probably) - i understand your running SPAUN on the PC and your custom NFS rom is talking to it over the serial line - but what is SPAUN talking to on the PC side? i.e. what is serving the files etc? FSEM2? (what ever that is??))

>> Just seen this thread! viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23140&p=349107&hilit=FSEM2#p349107

I have a custom interface ESP8266 NodeMCU pretending to be a modem sitting on the RS423 line on my BEEB used to connect to TELSTAR etc. Could that be made to link into SPAUN in the same way but using IP over WIFI? or possibly connect directly to what is serving the files to SPAUN?

The reason i ask is because looking at the SPAUN source - that could all run in the ESP8266 and make IP connections out over WIFI for files using your ROM (after all the ESP8266 comms is all just serial comms).

Please be kind with my ignorance - I am looking for enlightenment!! (and wondering about the possibilities!)

thanks

shifters

shifters74 · Post by **shifters74** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:16 pm

Sorry for another post!

Trying to compile SPAUN on Ubuntu20.04 with gcc 9.3 and it fails with the following error - any ideas?

gcc -std=c99 -o spaun main.c serial.c sp.c aun.c queue.c
serial.c: In function ‘_trigger_set’:
serial.c:62:18: error: storage size of ‘ts’ isn’t known
62 | struct timespec ts;
| ^~
serial.c:63:2: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘clock_gettime’ [-Wimplicit-function-declaration]
63 | clock_gettime(CLOCK_MONOTONIC, &ts);
| ^~~~~~~~~~~~~
serial.c:63:16: error: ‘CLOCK_MONOTONIC’ undeclared (first use in this function)
63 | clock_gettime(CLOCK_MONOTONIC, &ts);
| ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
serial.c:63:16: note: each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in
serial.c: In function ‘serial_rate’:
serial.c:203:4: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘cfmakeraw’ [-Wimplicit-function-declaration]
203 | cfmakeraw(&options);
| ^~~~~~~~~
serial.c:211:24: error: ‘CRTSCTS’ undeclared (first use in this function)
211 | options.c_cflag &= ~CRTSCTS;// Disable hardware flow control
| ^~~~~~~
aun.c: In function ‘set_stnp’:
aun.c:98:8: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘inet_aton’; did you mean ‘inet_pton’? [-Wimplicit-function-declaration]
98 | if (inet_aton("127.0.0.1", &sip->sin_addr) == 0) {
| ^~~~~~~~~
| inet_pton
make: *** [Makefile:3: compile] Error 1

mm67 · Post by **mm67** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:57 pm

I'm no expert regards linux, but I have found there are differences between versions when it comes to compiling stuff.
I have been meaning to try it in ubuntu etc.

re. ts size etc.
After a bit of googling looks like something to do with POSIX.
Try changing the start of main.c as below:
//#define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 1
#define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 199309L
(Do you have to do this in every file?)

[for ref : https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manua ... acros.html]

re. inet_aton
This is supposed to be defined in arpa/inet.h which is included.

With regards to the ESP8266, I defer to you on whether spaun will run on it or not.

Martin

shifters74 · Post by **shifters74** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:13 pm

mm67 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:57 pm I'm no expert regards linux, but I have found there are differences between versions when it comes to compiling stuff.
I have been meaning to try it in ubuntu etc.

re. ts size etc.
After a bit of googling looks like something to do with POSIX.
Try changing the start of main.c as below:
//#define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 1
#define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 199309L
(Do you have to do this in every file?)

[for ref : https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manua ... acros.html]

re. inet_aton
This is supposed to be defined in arpa/inet.h which is included.

With regards to the ESP8266, I defer to you on whether spaun will run on it or not.

Martin

That didn't work as it was still giving errors in serial.c.

I modified the make file to 'gcc -o spaun main.c serial.c sp.c aun.c queue.c' i.e. removed -std=c99

It then compiled fine.

thanks

shifters

shifters74 · Post by **shifters74** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:17 pm

mm67 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 8:57 pm
With regards to the ESP8266, I defer to you on whether spaun will run on it or not.

Martin

As i have the necessary hardware here, i think i will give it ago and see what happens.

In the first instance i may modify (a local copy of) SPAUN to accept socket connections from the ESP8266 instead of serial.

If that works, i then may proceed to see if i can integrate that ESP8266 code with SPAUN directly and talk directly to FSEM2 from theESP8266

cheers

shifters

mm67 · Post by **mm67** » Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:18 pm

removed -std=c99

D'oh. That is what I was originally going to suggest.

shifters74 · Post by **shifters74** » Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:26 pm

Hi mm67,

i have some progress and a problem (probably due to my lack of knowledge on econet)

I have a semi-working prototype project that runs on the ESP8266 NodeMCU.

Starting the ESP8266, it connects to your SPAUN running with ./spaun "*" (on a PC) i.e. pretends its a beebem connection.

Currently on the BBC i type *I AM 0.254 MARTIN and i can see the following in spaun:

Serial: open '*', real=0
Serial: listening...
Serial: rate = 19200 , approx bytes/sec = 1920 , clk_div = 0
aun_open stn=104
AUN : RX Enable = 1
Serial: CONNECTED
[nRTS=0]
>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7eSP : RX SCOUT TO 00fe, PORT=99 CTRL=80, LEN=23
AUN : TX UNICAST TO 00fe, PORT=99, CTRL=00, HANDLE=00001004, LEN=23
Received packet from 127.0.0.1:10254 length=8
AUN : RX type=03 port=99 cb=00 handle=00001004
AUN : RX ACK FROM 00fe
AUN : RX Enable = 0
SP : TX ACK FROM 00fe
SP : TX state = DATA
SP : TX state = CLOSE
SP : TX state = CLOSEWAIT
>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4d>41>52>54>49>4e>0d>fd>db>e5>7e>e5>ce>fe>00>80>99>90>00>53>2d>53>49>20>41>4d>20>30>2e>32>35>34>20>4^C

and the following in FSEM2

Starting - Ready

104 : I am MARTIN

But the BBC never returns until there is a serial overflow in spaun and then it says NET ERROR.

I am not sure what is happening in the trace above but it looks like FSEM2 is getting the message but there seems to be no response going back to spaun from FSEM2 - is that correct? Any ideas.

cheers

shifters

PS This is the type of ESP8266 i use https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283562134932 built as the instructions in the attached link viewtopic.php?t=15076 but with my own software.

mm67 · Post by **mm67** » Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:20 pm

It looks to me like the first transmission works, and FSEM replies with an ACK which is then attempted to be transmitted over serial to the beeb. But then it hangs and the beeb keeps retransmitting the original message.

When SP tx is in closewait it waits until the serial output buffer is empty, then sets a timer running and goes into Closedelay. When the timer times out it goes to idle.

But it stays in closewait so maybe the data in the buffer is not being sent. The beebem thing uses flags for handshaking, e.g. beebem sends ff 00 to reset nCTS which allows transmission. Have you disabled this in serial.c? On line 35 try changing the initial value of
not_clear_to_send to 0.

And also remove some of the code between 332 and 355 else the data might be corrupted.

Hope this is of help.

shifters74 · Post by **shifters74** » Thu Feb 17, 2022 10:34 am

HI mm67,

thanks that did indeed help - I am can see serial comms going to the ESP8266 now (i flash a led).

The attached is the mods i did to serial.c and the log of the output from spaun.

While it looks like messages are moving (going to Closedelay and IDLE) - it does seem as if something is looping. Would you mind taking a look at the attached file and log and let me know what you think?

Apologies for posting this here but your not enabled for PM

cheers

Shifters

mm67 · Post by **mm67** » Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:44 pm

Hi Shifters,

So the serial buffer is emptying, but the beeb is still not responding.

One more change I forgot about is at line 375, change

if (txbuf[txcount++] == 0xff)
txbuf[txcount++] = 0xff;

to just

txcount++;

And I also forgot that for the real beeb I had to slow down things a bit. In serial.c at line 68 rem the following:

//if (real_port)
n2 = (ts.tv_nsec / (100000000/140));//figure (where it works) found by trial & error with real beeb
//else
// n2 = (ts.tv_nsec / (100000000/192)) >> clock_divide;

BeebEm has a buffer for data going to its ACIA, where the real thing doesn't.
If it still doesn't work try lowering the figure 140 (140 is about 1400 bytes per second).

There is also the debug version of the ROM that shows a little of what it's doing (messages turned on/off by setting bit 7 of ?&8F):

NFS-SDBG.ssd: Disk image with debug version of ROM; (17.25 KiB) Downloaded 14 times

I've done the same mods and get this with BeebEM:

PS. This is all useful. I'd not thought of it being used like this.

shifters74 · Post by **shifters74** » Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:21 am

Hi mm67

Thanks for the response and the debug rom.

mm67 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 6:44 pm
And I also forgot that for the real beeb I had to slow down things a bit. In serial.c at line 68 rem the following:

//if (real_port)
n2 = (ts.tv_nsec / (100000000/140));//figure (where it works) found by trial & error with real beeb
//else
// n2 = (ts.tv_nsec / (100000000/192)) >> clock_divide;

this should not matter in SPAUN as your sending IP packets to the ESP8266 so i will leave it just 'as is', however on the ESP8266 i need to implement the same as you have and slow down the serial transmission rate.

I have made the txcount change as suggested

I will give it ago today and see how it progresses

cheers

shifters

shifters74 · Post by **shifters74** » Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:20 pm

Hi mm67,

We are working!!! See below.

I use about a 560 microsecond delay in my serial loop for serial comms to BBC and that seems ok.

I am able to connect as a user, *cat, run your gpat2 demo, save and load files directly etc

It is however slower than your version and looking at the led transmit light to the BBC, the ESP 8266 seems to spend most of its time waiting for data from SPAUN as the transmit time to the BBC is quite quick over serial. Are there any delays in SPAUN that i could change for data going out over the socket to the ESP8266?

The attached project is just a proof of concept that a £10 wireless connection is possible to the econet server using your NET serial rom and SPAUN (all be it with a few changes to what you published previously - all changes in serial.c i think!).

Possible additional changes (but not today after 6 hours of 'coding fun!'):

1) Split the buffer into receive from serial and receive from SPAUN and then possibly interleave sending and receiving messages in both directions (i dont know if this has any benefit with econet protocol messages i.e. can messages be flowing in both directions at the same time?). At the moment once data is received from serial or IP, i then sends that data on and does nothing until that send is finished as the buffer is shared between receiving from serial and receiving from IP
2) Better error handling for how the ESP8266 reconnects to SPAUN
3) Fold in spaun functionality (if this is possible!) for direct connection to FSEM2

See the attached if your interested.

cheers

shifters

BeebMaster · Post by **BeebMaster** » Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:29 pm

Poor thing, it has no station number!

mm67 · Post by **mm67** » Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:57 pm

Hi Shifters,

Good work!

The only other possible bottleneck is at the end of serial.c where it buffers a few bytes (rather than sending a datagram for each byte).
But it only buffers for 1/100th of a second (trigger1).

I've just tried it in BeebEm and it's actually running faster than the real beeb.

Poor thing, it has no station number!

That's a security feature.

shifters74 · Post by **shifters74** » Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:30 pm

HI mm67,

played around with fsem2 and SPAUN on a raspberry pi 4 as the file server (instead of my x86 PC) using my ESP8266 wireless connection and all worked as well as if it was the PC (i.e. still slow but working!)

I also tried using a serial to USB adapter on the Pi4 with your original SPAUN code (not my modified version of serial.c) (one of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/163959525514 USB to serial adapters) i.e. to pretend it was a serial connection. This didnt work. Spaun seemed to receive ok from the USB adapter but was unable to send back i.e. nothing was received at all. The Pi4 see's the device as /dev/ttyUSB0 automatically but starting SPAUN with "/dev/ttyUSB0" does not work (i.e. receives from bbc only).

Still working on importing SPAUN into the ESP8266 for direct connection to FSEM2 - will keep you posted with any progress.

cheers

shifters

shifters74 · Post by **shifters74** » Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:42 pm

Does any one know if its possible to connect one of these RS232 to TTL adapters (which i use interfacing between the BBC and the ESP8266) - like these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402345247492 directly to a raspberry pi GPIO (pin 1 for 3.3v power, pin 6 for ground, pins 8 and 10 for TX and RX) in order for the PI to talk to the BBC over serial.

The aim of course is to connect the BBC via the adapter to SPAUN running on a pi4.

cheers

Shifters

mm67 · Post by **mm67** » Fri Mar 25, 2022 9:34 pm

Hi all,

I've updated GitHub with the first proper version of SPAUN, and an updated version of the NFS rom.

Then ROM can also be assembled to run in sideways RAM so as not to claim static/private workspace.
[This can be assembled with the ADLC code, but I have not tested this.]
It's got a faster CRC routine, so the data rate has increased to approximately 1900 bytes/second.

SPAUN is now in C++, and can handle multiple stations. A config file sets up the network.

Both the net ROM & spaun seem to be working very well - I've not had any issues for a few days.
I've been using CopyFiles to copy STH game disks from MMFS as a test.

: FSEM & SPAUN running on RPi Desktop (running on a PC)

mm67 · Post by **mm67** » Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:21 pm

Hi all,

I've been disassembling some of the library utilities, out of curiosity as much as anything.

They can be reassembled (at an address of your choice), some I've tweaked:

https://github.com/mmbeeb/NFS_SERIAL/tree/main/LIBRARY

A silly video:
https://youtu.be/buQrg_LAgD4

Here I'm using the 'serial' nfs version so it's a bit slower.
Notify sends the message 1 byte at a time so there's a large overhead.

Note: Never got these to work on normal BeebEm econet.

stardot.org.uk

Econet over Serial

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