BeebSID

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
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billcarr2005
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Re: BeebSID

Post by billcarr2005 » Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:45 pm

Could've probably added the newer disc image below your request, so it wouldn't look like i have the gift of foretelling the future :D

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Kecske Bak
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Kecske Bak » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:59 pm

=D>

Many thanks for that.

BTW: MartinB sells a seeing the future cheese wedge that plugs into the 1MHz bus. It's currently out of stock due to unexpected demand...

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sorvad
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Re: BeebSID

Post by sorvad » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:19 pm

Thanks for all the tunes that have been posted, just got round to running through them, fantastic :)

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billcarr2005
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Re: BeebSID

Post by billcarr2005 » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:57 pm

I added Delta, because it's got 13 tunes to choose from. Only a couple are more than a few seconds long though. Also, Rob Hubbard's SIDs are generally quite simple to alter!
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10xSID.zip
10 SIDs
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Samwise
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Samwise » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:08 am

These really sound excellent. Cool!

We really have to get some of these tunes running behind Tom's landscape demo thing! ... We could fool ppl into thinking they were looking at an Amiga!

billcarr2005, one small suggestion - it took me a while to figure out Z/X moved between songs. Might be worth having an on-screen note to that effect, as there seems to be quite a bit of room?

Sam.

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MartinB
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:27 am

I have been messing about with direct BeebSID to PC recording and here's a 40s clip of Repton 3. It's a wav file and the biggest I can upload here is 5Mb which is 40 seconds (zipped) at a decent sample rate. Still, at least the quality is better than my YBF clips =D>

Anyway, here it is for non-BeebSID endowed folk to listen to :D

BTW - How are people without BeebSIDs (e.g. you Samwise) listening to Bill's stuff ? :?. Is this something to do with Tom's new emulator that nobody has told me about?
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sorvad
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Re: BeebSID

Post by sorvad » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:49 am

I confess I've not had time to source or build my real BeebSid (well my hardware's not set up either) so I'm using Tom's excellent emulator to join in with the BeebSid gang :) Thanks Tom :)

If you converted that WAV to MP3 the size would be diddy in comparison. I use the free software Audacity for a lot of my wav/ mp3 editing. Although to get it to work with MP3's you've to install some other free thing, a DLL I think, but instructions are shown and it's easy. Can't remember why it's not bundled with it, slightly different licensing conditions possibly.

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Kecske Bak
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Kecske Bak » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:15 am

MP3?

[-X

oggs and flacs!

=D>

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sorvad
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Re: BeebSID

Post by sorvad » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:30 am

Sorry for my ignorance, what's wrong with MP3, is there some copyrights issue ? or is oggs and flacs technically better ?

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Samwise
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Samwise » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:51 am

MP3s are indeed covered by patents, which makes it harder to legally include support for them in free software.

FLAC is completely free, but isn't quite the same kettle of fish - it's a lossless format so it guarantees that no information is thrown away and you can always uncompress a FLAC to get back the original WAV file. This, of course, means that FLAC files are usually bigger than an MP3 or Ogg Vorbis file (which throw away information for the sake of smaller file sizes).

Ogg Vorbis has been for a while touted as a patent-free alternative to MP3s, but it's never really taken off with the same level of popularity/support. Not least because there are a number of issues with the Ogg container format.

For most purposes, MP3s are the most widely supported format - patent issues, aside, which the end-user is usually blissfully unaware of. Ogg Vorbis isn't really used by anyone but die-hard open source fanatics. FLAC is a very good option for archiving, because it's easy to translate on the fly to pretty much anything (.mp3, .ogg, .m4a etc.). Another alternative (tho still loaded with patents) is a .m4a (MPEG layer 4 audio) which is a successor to MP3 and whilst not quite as widely supported yet, it is used by most modern players - this is a DRM-free version of what Apple chose to use with iPod/iTunes.

Sam.

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sorvad
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Re: BeebSID

Post by sorvad » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:06 am

Thanks Sam, good explanation. I only tend to work with MP3's when doing Flash programs. Not a big user of any type of sound files.

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Kecske Bak
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Kecske Bak » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:14 am

Samwise wrote:Not least because there are a number of issues with the Ogg container format.
That article looks like a load of FUD to me.

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MartinB
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:18 am

Image

Err... So what package can I use to record BeebSID direct into a PC and produce manageable size good quality files? Steve's suggestion?
sorvad wrote:...so I'm using Tom's excellent emulator...
Hmm... the STH inner circle is a mysterious and awesome club to which I can only ever aspire. Still, makes Kecske's BAFTA Craft Award nomination feel all the more special. I'd like to thank the producers, the crew, my family, the bloke down the pub...

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sorvad
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Re: BeebSID

Post by sorvad » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:37 am

Question will be does OGG play straight out of box for most systems ? I don't know, but will most peoples audio players generally support it, guessing Samwise, Kecske will have an idea. For MP3 most peoples systems (well windows anyway, not sure about Linux, RISCOS etc.) will play it straight away I reckon.
MartinB wrote:Hmm... the STH inner circle is a mysterious and awesome club to which I can only ever aspire. Still, makes Kecske's BAFTA Craft Award nomination feel all the more special. I'd like to thank the producers, the crew, my family, the bloke down the pub...
How'd you know about the inner circle ?, at the last meeting I had to shave my thighs and do something with goose fat that was totally not pleasant, and the the least said about the chickens involvement the better, are you sure you want in ? .... oh no, I've said too much, the secrets are revealed, I feel Arcadians gaze as we speak... This'll be the next Dan Brown book for sure now

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Samwise
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Samwise » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:47 am

Kecske Bak wrote:That article looks like a load of FUD to me.
I /hate/ that acronym. It was created by MS-bashers who couldn't even be bothered to write why they hated whatever it was they were targetting. I'd much rather read through an intelligent discussion of where the original author(s) got it wrong than listen to the repetition of what sounds like a muppet with Tourettes. ;)
MartinB wrote:Image

Err... So what package can I use to record BeebSID direct into a PC and produce manageable size good quality files? Steve's suggestion?
Yeah, Audacity is always a good program to have around. Personally, gauging the target audience here and the fact that you're not permanently archiving, just sharing what BeebSID sounds like, I'd convert to MP3 and have done with it. Everyone can play them (even though lots of Linux distros don't support it out of the box, it's usually pretty easy to find the appropriate codecs). You could go with the patent-free FLAC (lossless) or Ogg (lossy) formats but you wouldn't be able to store as long a sample in the case of FLAC and neither would work on Windows PCs out of the box, which would just cause a bit more hassle for anyone who hasn't already got their system working with FLACs/Oggs. Making a huge sweeping statement, it's usually easier for a new Linux user to figure out how to play MP3s than it would a new Windows user to work out how to play FLACs or Oggs (i.e. usually install a new audio player).
MartinB wrote:
sorvad wrote:...so I'm using Tom's excellent emulator...
Hmm... the STH inner circle is a mysterious and awesome club to which I can only ever aspire. Still, makes Kecske's BAFTA Craft Award nomination feel all the more special. I'd like to thank the producers, the crew, my family, the bloke down the pub...
Hah. No, Tom's just had a bit of a beta release to get the major kinks out, before he launches the next version. Don't want to speak for him, but it's due out fairly soon I think. You could always get the latest info by dropping him a line ... ;)

Sam.

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sorvad
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Re: BeebSID

Post by sorvad » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:54 am

Samwise wrote:
Kecske Bak wrote:That article looks like a load of FUD to me.
I /hate/ that acronym.
I'd lost the plot for a bit and couldn't remember what FUD stood for, on my first look up it showed up as a brand of hot dog... This really threw me off balance with the thread for a moment :lol: Wondering how it was like a load of hot dogs... But worked it out in the end.

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Kecske Bak
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Kecske Bak » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:09 pm

Samwise wrote:a muppet with Tourettes.
I never knew you held me in such high esteem. Nicest thing someone's said about me this week.

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Samwise
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Samwise » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:16 pm

haha. No, I said the acronym sounds like that, not you. Although, then, we've never talked in rl, have we? Would be cool if you did!

I remember being taken aback when I first met MartinB. He sounds just like Elmo. :lol:

Sam.

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MartinB
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:01 pm

It's nice that you remember our first meet. In fact, Jayne took a picture...
MartinB and Samwise.jpg
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Samwise
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Samwise » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:09 pm


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MartinB
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:01 pm

Safer Browsing with Samwise
Lesson 1 : Eat all the cookies

Ok, following sound advice (sic) from Sorvad & Sam (the STH SS), I have used Audacity to make an mp3 of a real BeebSID playing billcarr2005's conversion of Repton 3 and I think it's now a full iteration at about 1:09. (I say I think because the tunes on the disc loop endlessly.)

Of course, I now know this is only for the benefit of those of you without a BeebSID AND who are not ritual members of the STH masonic lodge who can of course emulate the Big Bang and everything that followed. Thankyou.
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Test Pilot Monkey
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Test Pilot Monkey » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:33 pm

What the heck version of Repton 3 is that from? Sounds more like a Dizzy tune.

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Re: BeebSID

Post by Hideki » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:10 pm

Hihi

That is from the C64 version and sounds pretty much spot on when compared to the C128D behind me (which will be keeping its SID!)

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MartinB
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:49 pm

Thanks for that Hideki and welcome to STH. I kept quiet regarding the question because I had no idea where it was from :-
Hideki wrote:(which will be keeping its SID!)
Not if we find out where you live...

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PitfallJones
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PJ's SID Disk#2 - BBC game music.

Post by PitfallJones » Sat May 01, 2010 3:16 pm

Hi,

Here's another demo disk - this time it's BBC game music on the SID.

- PJ
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billcarr2005
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Re: BeebSID

Post by billcarr2005 » Sun May 02, 2010 9:49 am

Good to know somebody is still converting tunes! :wink:
=D>

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PitfallJones
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Relocating SIDs in memory

Post by PitfallJones » Sun May 02, 2010 12:23 pm

It's surprising difficult.

I wrote a program that scans for the sid $D4xx addresses that works pretty good, but then relocating the sid in memory never seems very successful to me.
Unfortunately many SIDs are built to run at addresses > $8000 so must be relocated.

In the end I made the last disk by just selecting SIDs that didn't need relocation and then fitting the loader program into a free area of memory none of the selection uses - it uses the clear $E00-$1900 and do a *DISK command method before each load - which works 90% of the time.

Luckily there are many versions of SIDs - like popcorn for instance - so I keep searching till I found one that worked.

I'm surprised there's no tools to do sid relocation out there already. I found a cool program called Goat Tracker that lets you make and save SIDs but won't load them.

To relocate I try the following algorithm - identify whats code and whats data.
For the code area look for all Absolute, JSR and JMP commands and change them.
The problem is you can also have addresses in tables in the data area which are hard to find and also some Immediate instructions may have partial addresses.
The other thing I've discovered is some SIDs relocate themselves and some use data areas outside their load address area - I suspect some might use C64 system address that don't mean anything on the BBC as well.

- PJ

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Re: BeebSID

Post by PeteD » Sun May 02, 2010 4:35 pm

Most player routines on the C64 use some zero page (for indirect addressing) and it's usually data for that that's hiding in tables (offsets to starts of patterns etc) so there's a lot of data and not just code that needs changing.

I'd try running them on something like 6502sim, watch the zp addresses change and see if any of them are in the same range as the load/end address. If so find the bit of code that stores to those zp addresses (stick a break on write in there) and you'll get the data to change :)


Pete

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PitfallJones
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Relocating SIDs

Post by PitfallJones » Sun May 02, 2010 6:48 pm

Thanks for the tip - I'll give 6502sim a go.

I also found a special version of sidplay2 that saves out a memory map of addresses used from the 'Ripping for Dummies' link at:

http://www.hvsc.de/faq.htm#faq

That sites pretty good - they also have a link to a USB SID player:

http://www.hardsid.com/

You can even get stereo ones - pretty cool!

- PJ

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Re: BeebSID

Post by PitfallJones » Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:01 am

Here's a new disk full of Sid goodness:

Back to the 80s!

Beeb Sid disk#3

-PJ
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