IDE interfaces - hardware details

Arc/RPCs, peripherals, RISCOS operating system & ARM kit eg GP2x, BeagleBoard
TimoHartong
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by TimoHartong » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:56 pm

A small update I tried to program a 27C010 EPROM ( this is what I had in stock ) . That was a story in it self because I have a DataIO 212 which doesn't accept the binary file so I had to convert it first. After burning it the podule was not visible in *podules...

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by TimoHartong » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:45 pm

I can confirm that the version IDE1_1V13.txt works with RISCOS. In the EPROM programmer I however configured it should start programming at 0x1C000 for a DataIO 212 that means the command >P 0 3FFF 1C000

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IanS
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:01 pm

You could have put it at 0x18000 in the existing rom image, to be able to select between the 4 versions of software (3 ZIDEFS variants + the ICS image) using the jumper links on the card.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=15205#p205465

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by TimoHartong » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:10 pm

And mis all the fun of burning EPROM's. :D . No joking what jumper gives me what ROM image ?. Just too let you know v 2.02 seems also to work.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Wed May 01, 2019 1:16 pm

i have a different issue with my zidefs podule: all ok with Riscos 3.11 to 4.02, but when softloading the 5.23 Riscos, podule is listed but no zidefs (neither sidefs nor idefs) is found...
i don't know if it's about my boot config.. anyone had same problem?

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by RobC » Wed May 01, 2019 1:42 pm

aotta wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:16 pm
i have a different issue with my zidefs podule: all ok with Riscos 3.11 to 4.02, but when softloading the 5.23 Riscos, podule is listed but no zidefs (neither sidefs nor idefs) is found...
i don't know if it's about my boot config.. anyone had same problem?
I haven't tried this as I only use RO4.39 and RO6 on my RiscPC but does ZIDEFS show up under *ROMMODULES or *MODULES? Just wondering whether it's getting unplugged for some reason?

Also, it might be worth asking about this over on community support section of the RISC OS Open Forum: https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/11

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Wed May 01, 2019 2:09 pm

RobC wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:42 pm
I haven't tried this as I only use RO4.39 and RO6 on my RiscPC but does ZIDEFS show up under *ROMMODULES or *MODULES? Just wondering whether it's getting unplugged for some reason?

Also, it might be worth asking about this over on community support section of the RISC OS Open Forum: https://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/11
That's the issue, rommodules and modules don't show ZIDEFS after softbooted.. i'll made more test (and looking for the way to burn the new Riscos bigger than 4MB in a pair of 27C160, so i'll be able to avoid the softloading...)
Thank you Rob!

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by hubersn » Wed May 01, 2019 3:25 pm

aotta wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:16 pm
i have a different issue with my zidefs podule: all ok with Riscos 3.11 to 4.02, but when softloading the 5.23 Riscos, podule is listed but no zidefs (neither sidefs nor idefs) is found...
i don't know if it's about my boot config.. anyone had same problem?
I would guess that ZIDEFS is not 32bit clean, so the RISC OS 5 podule loader inhibits its initialization.

Unfortunately, none of John's software is 32bit clean (ISTR it was a political thing), and no source code is available.

Have fun
hubersn

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by TimoHartong » Wed May 01, 2019 7:34 pm

Hmm problems with starting !Impression and !EasyC.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by sparkyhall » Wed May 01, 2019 8:11 pm

Are you sure that you haven't got the large file corruption I had with CF cards, for me it was any single file >300k I think. I should note that not all CF cards suffered from this.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by TimoHartong » Wed May 01, 2019 8:16 pm

Should I just connect a IDE drive to it ? And is there any known solution for it ?
Last edited by TimoHartong on Wed May 01, 2019 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by sparkyhall » Wed May 01, 2019 8:31 pm

My A3000 with ICS IDE interface with V2.02 firmware has only ever had 3 different IDE drives attached, a 40MB WD (the original drive), a 100MB Seagate and a 245MB Seagate, these all worked fine but it's very sample size.

The only solution I found for corrupt CF was to switch to ZIDEFS, I was using RiscOS 3.10 though. A Sandisk 512MB CF card, model SDCFJ, worked fine as did a 256MB Integral card.

Chris

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by RobC » Wed May 01, 2019 9:19 pm

hubersn wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:25 pm
I would guess that ZIDEFS is not 32bit clean, so the RISC OS 5 podule loader inhibits its initialization.

Unfortunately, none of John's software is 32bit clean (ISTR it was a political thing), and no source code is available.
Is it worth running the ZIDEFS module through !Armalyser to discover the extent of the problems?

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Thu May 02, 2019 10:51 am

RobC wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 9:19 pm

Is it worth running the ZIDEFS module through !Armalyser to discover the extent of the problems?
I didn"t know the tool, I"ll try it asap, thank you Robert!

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Fri May 03, 2019 1:57 pm

i made other test and i concluded that the podules is not 32bit compatible.. !Armalyzer can't inspect the rom files, as their headers is not recognized, and *podulesave give the error "loader is not 32-bit compatible"
And, i noticed my Castle SCSI CD-Rom is not found in RiscOS 5.24 too!
So, i have a last question for @RobC: you said you use 4.39 and RO6... so, your IDE Podule works with softloaded RO6?

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by RobC » Fri May 03, 2019 2:48 pm

aotta wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 1:57 pm
So, i have a last question for @RobC: you said you use 4.39 and RO6... so, your IDE Podule works with softloaded RO6?
I've not tried it. I do have an original ICS podule in my A310 but I haven't put a ZIDEFS ROM in it yet. I could try it if you want me to but it might take me a few days to get around to it.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Fri May 03, 2019 4:00 pm

RobC wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 2:48 pm
aotta wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 1:57 pm
So, i have a last question for @RobC: you said you use 4.39 and RO6... so, your IDE Podule works with softloaded RO6?
I've not tried it. I do have an original ICS podule in my A310 but I haven't put a ZIDEFS ROM in it yet. I could try it if you want me to but it might take me a few days to get around to it.
Thank you Robert, but is not necessary. I am pretty sure it's a 32-bit compatibility issue, i misunderstand you and thought you tested and get it worked with RO6.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by TimoHartong » Sat May 04, 2019 10:17 am

daveejhitchins wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:44 am
IanS wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:02 pm
Features :

Fully replaces (and considerably improves on) the standard filing system and support software supplied with the 'old' Ian Copestake Software (ICS) 16-bit IDE interface from circa 1991.
Extends compatibility all the way up to Risc PCs running RISC OS 4.
Provides optimal transfer speeds and improved harddisc compatibility.
Supports up to four partitions and very large (up to 256 GB) drives.
I wonder if the firmware on the 6C version PCB 'catches-up' with these features? Anyone know?
The 5x version was upgraded quite a lot, from when ZIDEFS was written - the latest version I have is attached. Maybe worth a try?

BE-APDL-IDE5-IDEFS3v22-CDFS2v21-0V21.BIN.zipFor this board"IMG_2432.jpgIMG_2431.jpg
Dave H :D
Hi I tested in a Archimedes A440 with RO2 with the old mem controller ( yes that is before MEM1ca ). No luck there

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by Stevetuc » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:01 pm

IanS wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:09 pm
myelin wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:39 am
Would you be open to uploading the .sch files (pictured in the PDFs), and possibly your kicad_pcb file with everything except the connectors and board layout deleted, for interested folks to use as a starting point? (That way we can build on a verified base.)
Here are my KiCad projects, I encourage people to just use the PCB layouts as examples, but if you want to use them, go ahead.
I have ordered a batch of podule_ide_a3000_v2 and will have 4 pcbs free if anyone is interested at 12gpb each inc postage

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:09 pm

Stevetuc wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:01 pm
I have ordered a batch of podule_ide_a3000_v2 and will have 4 pcbs free if anyone is interested at 12gpb each inc postage
Is that assembled, or just a blank PCB?

I should upload the v3 details, though it is a bit fiddly with the surface mount parts.
Last edited by IanS on Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by Stevetuc » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:12 pm

Just the blank pcb. I ordered from Seeedstudio and the price goes up for pcbs measuring more than 100mm in x or y. This pcb measures 142x62mm. Its $33 for 5 boards + $8.80 shipping, then there is 20% vat and postoffice handling fee of £8.

Actually I have now found that JCLPCB is cheaper for larger boards(> 100x100mm) and/or 4 layer.So I would use them next time.

It would be good if you upload the v3 design. I would like to try out the techniques shown here:)

https://youtu.be/5uiroWBkdFY
https://youtu.be/rgcupYOnvBo

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by Stevetuc » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:19 am

IanS wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:42 pm
As some of you may have noticed, with the help of John Kortink I've made and sold a few IDE interfaces. The building and posting of PCB's is not something I want to do long-term, so I'm making the designs available, so anyone can make IDE interfaces.

[.... ] A 22V10 GAL is used to hold the decode logic for the various chip selects and direction control signals. (the odd layout of the pins on the GAL are to simplify the layout of the PCB)
[...]
Ian, what is the purpose of the connection from the Gal to pin 31 (F_prgm or WE#) of the rom,does it simply set it high? I plan to use a 27512 as I have some available, with just a Zidefs rom programmed.
If I link pin 32 of the socket to pin 28 of the 27512 for Vdd all else is pin compatible but obviously not the F_prgm.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:29 pm

Stevetuc wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:19 am
Ian, what is the purpose of the connection from the Gal to pin 31 (F_prgm or WE#) of the rom,does it simply set it high? I plan to use a 27512 as I have some available, with just a Zidefs rom programmed.
If I link pin 32 of the socket to pin 28 of the 27512 for Vdd all else is pin compatible but obviously not the F_prgm.
I was going to look at re-writing the contents of the flash from within RISC OS, but I never got round to it. I'm not sure it would work with the later version as the page latch is only 3 bits on the V3 boards. You can safely ignore it.
Last edited by IanS on Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by Kazzie » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:44 am

I'm aware that the on-board ROM (as provided) has three different varieties of the IDEFS software, such that it can present itself as any one of a IDEFS, SIDEFS, or ZIDEFS filing system.

Is it feasible for the ROM to be adapted so it presents itself as an ADFS filing system? (Which may involve accepting some ADFS shortcomings, like lack of partitions etc.)

My motivation is that I've just installed an Oak ClassNet card that misbehaves if it doesn't find an ST506 or IDE (ADFS) drive configured, and changes the CMOS settings to create one. I figured that if my ZIDEFS podule behaved like a native IDE/AFDS drive, the two of them might coexist happier.
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by cmj6502 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:01 am

If you don’t need the ClassNet stuff could you *unplug it or make a new ROM for that podule instead? It a bit cheeky of it fiddling with other settings, although I can add any it does it.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by Kazzie » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:06 am

cmj6502 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:01 am
If you don’t need the ClassNet stuff could you *unplug it or make a new ROM for that podule instead? It a bit cheeky of it fiddling with other settings, although I can add any it does it.
A new ROM is a possibility, though the 32-pin ROM is larger than my antediluvian EPROM programmer can handle.

*unplugging doesn't seem like it would work, as the ROM reads and modifies my CMOS settings (creating a non-existent IDE drive) on power-up, long before I get a command prompt or desktop. There's more details on the thread I made about the card.

At the moment I'm just brainstorming ideas, hence the earlier question.
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:58 am

Kazzie wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:44 am
Is it feasible for the ROM to be adapted so it presents itself as an ADFS filing system? (Which may involve accepting some ADFS shortcomings, like lack of partitions etc.)
I think you have an original V1 card. So you should be able use the ROM image from the original ZIDEFS distribution, which has a version that presents itself as "ADFS". http://www.zeridajh.org/software/zidefs/index.htm

It should work if you put the image in a 28-pin 27128 EPROM,

For a 28-pin chip to work, you'd need to ensure JP1 (nearest to the podule connector is not fitted). The ROM image is written starting at address zero in the ROM with JP2 fitted (A14 low). You could put an alternative image in the top 8K with JP2 not fitted (A14 high).

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by Kazzie » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:31 am

IanS wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:58 am
Kazzie wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:44 am
Is it feasible for the ROM to be adapted so it presents itself as an ADFS filing system? (Which may involve accepting some ADFS shortcomings, like lack of partitions etc.)
I think you have an original V1 card. So you should be able use the ROM image from the original ZIDEFS distribution, which has a version that presents itself as "ADFS". http://www.zeridajh.org/software/zidefs/index.htm

It should work if you put the image in a 28-pin 27128 EPROM,

For a 28-pin chip to work, you'd need to ensure JP1 (nearest to the podule connector is not fitted). The ROM image is written starting at address zero in the ROM with JP2 fitted (A14 low). You could put an alternative image in the top 8K with JP2 not fitted (A14 high).
Thanks for the advice. I'll give that a try when I get a chance.
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by Kazzie » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:47 pm

IanS wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:58 am
Kazzie wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:44 am
Is it feasible for the ROM to be adapted so it presents itself as an ADFS filing system? (Which may involve accepting some ADFS shortcomings, like lack of partitions etc.)
I think you have an original V1 card. So you should be able use the ROM image from the original ZIDEFS distribution, which has a version that presents itself as "ADFS". http://www.zeridajh.org/software/zidefs/index.htm

It should work if you put the image in a 28-pin 27128 EPROM,

For a 28-pin chip to work, you'd need to ensure JP1 (nearest to the podule connector is not fitted). The ROM image is written starting at address zero in the ROM with JP2 fitted (A14 low). You could put an alternative image in the top 8K with JP2 not fitted (A14 high).
Well, it was a partial success.

Having burned the original ZIDEFS to a ROM, my two partitions show up as ADFS:: filesystems rather than IDEFS:: or ZIDEFS:: ones. On the down side, my floppy drive doesn't show up with the old ROM inserted (with or without the ClassNet fitted). :?

Is this a known behavior, or have I borked this up in a new and original manner?
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:56 am

Kazzie wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:47 pm
Having burned the original ZIDEFS to a ROM, my two partitions show up as ADFS:: filesystems rather than IDEFS:: or ZIDEFS:: ones. On the down side, my floppy drive doesn't show up with the old ROM inserted (with or without the ClassNet fitted). :?

Is this a known behavior, or have I borked this up in a new and original manner?
I hadn't really thought about it, but it's probably expected behaviour. The IDE podule is replacing ADFS, which normally handles the floppy drive, so it will probably stop the floppy from working.

The IDEFS and ADFS ROm images were only really meant for when you had an existing disk that already had hard-coded paths which would break if the filing system name changed.

I now use the different filing system names/numbers to make it possible to fit multiple podules to a single machine.

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