BeebEm Mac - Info

want to talk about MESS/model b/beebem/b-em/electrem/elkulator? do it here!
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lurkio
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:32 pm

SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:15 pm
Just thought I'd resurrect this thread as I use Beebem Mac as my emulator of choice, and have done for ages.

I'm happy to get involved. I'm an iOS developer by trade, but happy to get involved on the Mac side. I don't know how much I can offer on the Beeb side, but I'm happy to learn.
Hi, James. Good to hear from another fan of Mac BeebEm!

As far as I can tell, the effort to continue developing Mac BeebEm, led by Jon/g7jjf and Martin/guddler, seems to have stalled. There’s been no activity that I know of since Martin’s last post, above. And I just checked and it seems that the private Gitea code repository that Martin refers to is offline. I don’t really know what’s going on.

:(

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by iainjh » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:16 pm

I've just loaded it onto my mac - 1st time Ive ever run beebem on a computer, and its fantastic :)

thank you to all involved!

iain

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by LordVaderUK » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:44 am

Newbie question (yes, another one, sorry).

I've downloaded BeebEm4 and it's running on the Mac. Can load up the disk images that come with the package. But I don't know how to save stuff to disc. If I choose File>Disc Options>New Disc 0 and enter a filename (like DISC0), nothing is created in the directory. When I try and do any disc operations (like *DRIVE 0) I just get the message "No directory". I've read the README.TXT carefully but I'm none the wiser.

Oh and I've tried *FORM40 which just gives me "Disc fault 18 at :0 00/00"... :|

Any of you Mac / BeebEm users point me in the right direction?! Thanks
Last edited by LordVaderUK on Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:44 pm

LordVaderUK wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:44 am
I've downloaded BeebEm4 and it's running on the Mac. Can load up the disk images that come with the package. But I don't know how to save stuff to disc. If I choose File>Disc Options>New Disc 0 and enter a filename (like DISC0), nothing is created in the directory.
I believe you have to give the filename an extension: .SSD (for a single-sided disc) or .DSD (for double-sided). So try DISC0.SSD

:idea:

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:47 pm

This should work just fine - I just tested it.
  • Make sure you are running a floppy filing system: *DISC
  • File / Disc Options / New Disc 0 (or CMD D) - as Lurkio says, ensure you specify an extension such as .SSD
  • Drive 0 should automatically get write protection removed, but check with File / Disc Options / Write Protect 0 (or CMD 0)
  • Format: *FORM40 or *FORM80
You should be good to go

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:01 pm

Incidentally, the repository is back online. Sorry, I had problems with my router a couple weeks back and in order to establish what the problem is / was I reset the config and didn't put the rule back in to allow traffic through to my server. I do still have the online gaming problems so it might go off again at some point but I'm no tin a hurry to go buying a new router :)

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by LordVaderUK » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:47 pm

guddler wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:47 pm
This should work just fine - I just tested it.
  • Make sure you are running a floppy filing system: *DISC
  • File / Disc Options / New Disc 0 (or CMD D) - as Lurkio says, ensure you specify an extension such as .SSD
  • Drive 0 should automatically get write protection removed, but check with File / Disc Options / Write Protect 0 (or CMD 0)
  • Format: *FORM40 or *FORM80
You should be good to go
Thanks for this. I gave it a try, but still nothing is created on my chosen folder (I've tried a couple of different locations). So obviously something odd is going on here on my Mac.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by robcfg » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:57 pm

I tried the following on my Mac:

I start BeebEm4 with the default config (BBC Master 128 with Native 8271 disk controller).
On start I get the following on screen:
Acorn MOS

Acorn 1770 DFS

BASIC

>_
Next, I go File->Disc Options->New Disc 0 , and enter Test.ssd as file name on my user's Document folder.

I tried saving a basic program, exiting the emulator, loading the ssd file and running it again without any problem.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by LordVaderUK » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:18 am

Thanks all for the pointers, I have managed to work it out, slightly convoluted but I guess that’s the joy of retro ;-)

In case anyone else finds this thread and is wondering, here’s what I learned:

On SDLIDE (BBC Basic editor)
  • Edit and debug your program
    Save in TEXT file format (will save as .BAS format) e.g. NEWFILE.BAS
On BeebEm4
  • File > Load Disc 0 > BLANK.SSD (or actually, any disk image you like)
    Edit > Import Files from Disc > Disc 0
    Choose your .BAS format file e.g. NEWFILE.BAS
    *CAT and your file will now be on the disk
    *EXEC your file to load it as a text file e.g. *EXEC NEWFILE
    Now your program is in memory so you can run it
I see the discussion above about how to avoid the *EXEC step but it’s beyond my abilities to implement this!

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by OneSwitch » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:33 am

Out of interest, does the Mac version of BeebEm have all the features of the Windows version? I'm thinking of the Text-to-speech stuff, Break-out-box and touch-screen compatibility.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:43 am

LordVaderUK wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:18 am
I see the discussion above about how to avoid the *EXEC step but it’s beyond my abilities to implement this!
Select and copy the program-text in NEWFILE.BAS and then just paste it into BeebEm!

:?:

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Yrrah2 » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:48 pm

And please add me to the Mac list as well.
If I have the time, and not behind my real Master, the BeebEm is the thing I like to use.

Cheers
Happy with my BBC Master
www.mybbcmaster.nl

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by LordVaderUK » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:41 pm

lurkio wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:43 am
Select and copy the program-text in NEWFILE.BAS and then just paste it into BeebEm!

:?:
Well hot damn that works like a treat - thank you :-)

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dom
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by dom » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:24 pm

I'm a big fan of BeebEm and DFS_Explorer on Mac OS, as I travel a lot with my Macbook Pro, and it's great to have the option of playing Chuckie Egg, Frak, Elite etc. on the train.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by andrewvideo » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:01 pm

I love the BeebEm. I think its the best emulator ever I used. its fells to closest the real thing. I used other emulators for other computers and I don't get the same exerience with this emulator.

The only thing is missing is the sound of the disc drive loading. You do get it on Windows version. I love to hear the tape loading and the disc drive sounds.

Do have you got any plans to emuluate the new VideoNuLA boards and any other new hardware.

Also would be nice to if we can use the BEEB.MMC file in the emulator. I seen it done on the WIndows version with some rom install.

Keep up the good work.

Cheers.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:25 pm

Well, I have to say guys, from my point of view this is going nowhere. I've not heard anything from the original author since my initial contact and sorting out of the signed release last year. I've had a tonne of stuff to deal with in my personal life and my plans to get more into the Apple side of code just isn't going to happen because starting next week my work life is going to be maxed out probably until next year now.

Unless something drastic happens I can't see me renewing my Apple developer membership so unless someone else steps up to sign the application then we're going to be back to square one when the next version of the OS comes out. On top of that we all know the codebase uses carbon and we know that is a problem. But it's actually worse than that, there is also stuff in there that was already deprecated when Carbon came out and the recommendation even back then was to migrate off of it (don't ask me what as I don't remember off the top of my head - but I do remember finding stuff when I was digging into how to port it).

So, I stand by my comments that the bulk of the code is good and does not need to be re-written because at the end of the day all the emulator code is C and C is still supported by Apple and I don't see that changing. But everything outside of the emulation layer needs a complete rethink by someone that really knows their stuff, and yes, the UI probably needs to be completely re-written. But only the UI!

Obviously, since the code is open source the answer is to put it on GitHub for anyone to take a crack at. Maybe the StarDot GitHub? But while anyone could just go ahead and do that (again, it's open source it can be forked freely) I don't think it's desperately respectful to 'g7jjf' to do that so I will not. I don't recall if the modifications and notes I made (as few as they are) are included in the download but I'm pretty sure I included them in order to respect the license. That also means that nobody needs to wait for the code to be put somewhere. It's already out there, modify it, release it (signed and notarised), just respect the original license and you're good.

On a final note, I don't recall the date but soon enough Apple will require all signed releases to be notarised by them. I sincerely doubt that would be possible for a Carbon based application. That said, I don't think it will apply here because we are not distributing on the Mac App Store. BUT I don't recall what Apple said about what OS X will do about non-notarised applications. Somethings coming in 10.14.5 but I forget what. I would have to check my emails.

There you go. Not good news from me but no point in sugar coating it.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:49 pm

guddler wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:25 pm
Unless something drastic happens I can't see me renewing my Apple developer membership so unless someone else steps up to sign the application then we're going to be back to square one when the next version of the OS comes out.
Will we still be able to use the xattr workaround? Not ideal, but better than nothing.

guddler wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:25 pm
the bulk of the code is good and does not need to be re-written ... But everything outside of the emulation layer needs a complete rethink by someone that really knows their stuff ... Obviously, since the code is open source the answer is to put it on GitHub for anyone to take a crack at. Maybe the StarDot GitHub? But while anyone could just go ahead and do that (again, it's open source it can be forked freely) I don't think it's desperately respectful to 'g7jjf' to do that so I will not.
I've just messaged Jon/g7jjf and asked what he thinks about this.

:idea:

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:54 pm

lurkio wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:49 pm
Will we still be able to use the xattr workaround? Not ideal, but better than nothing.
If a new version isn't created then it won't be a problem as the existing version is already signed. The signature should be timestamped so it won't matter if my ID is renewed or not. If I don't renew it then I just won't be able to sign anything.

As for whether then previous workaround will work or not, we will need to see what Apple does in 10.14.5 and beyond. There WILL come a point where this application simply will not work on newer versions of the OS and users will have to refrain from upgrading MacOS if they wish to use BeebEm Mac. But we're not there yet.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:26 pm

Horizon [ https://www.bannister.org/software/horizon.htm ]
is just doing fine on my December 2018 Mac Mini running OS 10.14.5 beta 2

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by g7jjf » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:00 am

I have always included the source code as part of the distribution so have no problems putting the latest code on GitHub.

I just don't have the time or skills anymore to upgrade BeebEm to 64 bits.

Let's hope someone else will take on the task of keeping BeebEm alive in the future.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Richard Russell » Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:28 am

guddler wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:25 pm
Unless something drastic happens I can't see me renewing my Apple developer membership so unless someone else steps up to sign the application then we're going to be back to square one when the next version of the OS comes out.
If you simply need somebody with an active Apple Developer account then I will be happy to help, if it's a straightforward process. For the foreseeable future I will need to keep my developer status active because I need that to sign and distribute the iOS edition of BBC BASIC now, and the MacOS edition of BBC BASIC in the near future.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:30 am

g7jjf wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:00 am
I have always included the source code as part of the distribution so have no problems putting the latest code on GitHub.

I just don't have the time or skills anymore to upgrade BeebEm to 64 bits.

Let's hope someone else will take on the task of keeping BeebEm alive in the future.
Thank you! I know the nature of open source is such that anyone is free to do what they wish within the confines of the license terms but I always prefer to not do something that someone who has put so much effort into it would rather we didn't - and your efforts have been very much appreciated by many.

Best thing to do then is to get it put into GitHub, probably the StarDot GitHub and take it from there. I can organise that.

@Richard - yep, that pretty much sums it up as far as the signing goes. I've added a detailed document and IIRC a script that automates most of it. Obviously there's a bit of modification involved since I didn't put my developer IDs into the repository.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:34 am

guddler wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:30 am
Best thing to do then is to get it put into GitHub, probably the StarDot GitHub and take it from there. I can organise that.
Ah. I literally just finished requesting Stardot Github access for you, me and Richard on the relevant thread! Anyway, please go ahead and do whatever it is exactly that needs to be done! Many thanks for all your help.

=D> =D> =D>

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:38 am

No problem. I'm out this evening (for any potential bunglers reading, my Mrs isn't!) but I'll make a note to look at it over the long weekend.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:37 pm

I've created a public repository for it in the Stardot organisation but I'm not at the right computer at the moment to upload from my private machine.

I'll create a reminder to do it tomorrow. It's only a couple of git commands so it's easier if I just leave it until tomorrow rather than creating new security keys for this PC. Recreating the issues will be a bit more manual but there's only a few of them recorded so it won't take me long to copy / paste.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:02 pm

OK, everything that was on my private git repository, including reported issues is now on the StarDot Github:
https://github.com/stardot/beebem-mac

I'm not sure if I need to do anything more in respect of permissions or not, if so, please let me know. Obviously all the issues are showing as reported by me because I just recreated them by hand. Actually most of them were reported by Lurkio so I have "@mentioned" him in the opening line of the issue.

There may have been a more automated way to export / import the issues but for 16 issues I didn't think it was worth worrying about. Additionally I've kept the issue numbers the same so any links in commit messages still point to the correct issues.

Have fun!

Martin.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by daveejhitchins » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:58 am

I'm a user of BeebEm on my Mac on a regular basis - So a big thank you from me.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by SpaceFlightOrange » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:36 am

guddler wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:02 pm
OK, everything that was on my private git repository, including reported issues is now on the StarDot Github:
https://github.com/stardot/beebem-mac

I'm not sure if I need to do anything more in respect of permissions or not, if so, please let me know. Obviously all the issues are showing as reported by me because I just recreated them by hand. Actually most of them were reported by Lurkio so I have "@mentioned" him in the opening line of the issue.

There may have been a more automated way to export / import the issues but for 16 issues I didn't think it was worth worrying about. Additionally I've kept the issue numbers the same so any links in commit messages still point to the correct issues.

Have fun!

Martin.

Count me in on this. I'm happy to help out. I have an active Apple developer account also. Can i suggest that look to rebuild the UI out in Swift?
Last edited by SpaceFlightOrange on Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by JudgeBeeb » Thu May 02, 2019 10:31 am

I having been running this on Mojave for a few days and it appears to be working OK. (Although, I haven't stretched too hard yet.)

One issue, is that it doesn't appear to recognise any of the command line switches. Is this a known issue? Is this something that is likely to be addressed? Should I add it to the list on GitHub?

I would offer to help but I know zero about development for macOS. I am happy to be added to the list of alpha/beta-testers.

Excellent work guys and thanks for all your hard work.
There is so much wonder in the universe; why should you want to imagine that there is more?

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Thu May 02, 2019 12:11 pm

JudgeBeeb wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:31 am
One issue, is that it doesn't appear to recognise any of the command line switches. Is this a known issue? Is this something that is likely to be addressed? Should I add it to the list on GitHub?
I'm not sure if Mac BeebEm was ever meant to take commandline switches, but please do add it to the list of Issues on Github. All potential issues need recording.

JudgeBeeb wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:31 am
I would offer to help but I know zero about development for macOS. I am happy to be added to the list of alpha/beta-testers.
Although guddler has kindly put the Mac BeebEm source on Github, I don't believe anyone is actively developing it currently. guddler no longer has time to.

:(

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