This is not a language

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1024MAK
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Re: This is not a language

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:51 pm

Have a look to confirm that a HD146818P type is actually fitted in position IC11.

It’s worthwhile having a look to see if you can see any damage to the PCB tracks in the area of the HD146818P. Especially to the R/W pin 15. This signal comes from IC10 (74LS259). If you have a logic probe, or logic analyser or suitable oscilloscope, you could test the signal and see if it changes when you try to write to the CMOS RTC chip.

Mark

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Re: This is not a language

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:52 pm

Schematic here ;-)

Mark

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Re: This is not a language

Post by Jungsi » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:14 pm

Thanks for the tips! Yes there is a HD146818P in IC11. I don't have the devices to test this things and I have really bad eyes :wink:
Before the PSU repair the Master worked ok - I think I wait for the new chip, socket the chip and see whats happening. :-)

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Re: This is not a language

Post by daveejhitchins » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:18 am

danielj wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:04 am
It's a HD146818P, so I'd try a bit of an ebay trawl or utsource if nothing appears at a reasonable price there? Not sure if Dave H has them, or Retroclinic might too?

d.
Sorry, I don't have that one :?

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Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ARA III, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: This is not a language

Post by Jungsi » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:51 pm

All for nothing :-( I've put in a socket for IC11 and put in an new CMOS chip.
It's starting with the same....
TERMINAL
=

It's not saving any *CONFIGURE command.....

All other diagnostics which are described in the service manual are far beyond my knowledge and my bad eyes.

Do you know someone who could have a look at the board?

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Re: This is not a language

Post by danielj » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:01 pm

Ergh... OK - the only other thing to change out (as you've said you have no test gear) is IC10? It's a 74LS259, and should be fairly easy to get hold of?

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Re: This is not a language

Post by Elminster » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:08 pm

Jungsi wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:51 pm
All for nothing :-( I've put in a socket for IC11 and put in an new CMOS chip.
It's starting with the same....
TERMINAL
=

It's not saving any *CONFIGURE command.....

All other diagnostics which are described in the service manual are far beyond my knowledge and my bad eyes.

Do you know someone who could have a look at the board?
Mark @ Retroclinic

or if Midlands is not too far then a walk in and see if any one can look at it
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=15673

Edit: Okay Germany, would be a bit far.
Last edited by Elminster on Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: This is not a language

Post by Jungsi » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:09 pm

danielj wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:01 pm
Ergh... OK - the only other thing to change out (as you've said you have no test gear) is IC10? It's a 74LS259, and should be fairly easy to get hold of?
OK - lets try to do this ;-) I must always bring my devices to an electrician because I can't solder this myself :-)

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Re: This is not a language

Post by KenLowe » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:13 pm

I'm guessing it could also be the 6522 at IC8, which is providing the address strobe to the CMOS IC and is also tied into the nCE, but the first one to go for is definitely the 74LS259 at IC10.

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Re: This is not a language

Post by Jungsi » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:47 am

So finally changed IC10 - problem not solved. I think I'll contact Phil at Retroclinic

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Re: This is not a language

Post by leenew » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:05 pm

Hi Jungsi
It is Mark Haysman at Retroclinic.
You can search Retroclinic on Facebook, or his webpage http://www.retroclinic.com/

Lee.

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Re: This is not a language

Post by danielj » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:08 pm

Do the caps-lock/shift lock buttons work? Do they change the lights? I'm now looking at IC 8, the 6522... http://mdfs.net/Info/Comp/BBC/Circuits/ ... aster2.gif

d.

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Re: This is not a language

Post by Jungsi » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:39 pm

You are right - there is a problem with the LED. Turning on the Master only the middle LED is on (Caps Lock?).
Caps Lock and Shift lock have no effect - no LED is turning on or off.....

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Re: This is not a language

Post by danielj » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:00 pm

It's the 6522 :)

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Re: This is not a language

Post by Jungsi » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:22 pm

On ebay there are many different 6522 types - do I have to use a special one?

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Re: This is not a language

Post by danielj » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:29 pm

Show me some options :)

edit:-and as a sanity check, the keyboard is working otherwise (that would prove that the 6522 is at least getting a clock and various other signals and it's just one of the ports that's gone nasty)? Can someone else confirm, on that basis, my hypothesis that it's very much likely to be port B of the 6522?
Last edited by danielj on Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: This is not a language

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:45 pm

Master 128 system VIA (IC8)
Port A:
PA0 to PA7: ‘slow bus’ to/from keyboard, sound chip, RTC chip

PB0 output to IC10 (74LS259)
PB1 output to IC10 (74LS259)
PB2 output to IC10 (74LS259)
PB3 output to IC10 (74LS259)
PB4 input from analogue port joystick fire button
PB5 input from analogue port joystick fire button
PB6 output to RTC chip (IC11)
PB7 output to RTC chip (IC11)

Mark

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1024MAK
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Re: This is not a language

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:51 pm

In one of my Master 128 machines, the VIA chips are the CMOS version. Give me half an hour and I’ll find the part number.

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Re: This is not a language

Post by Jungsi » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:53 pm

Ebay UK
Ebay Germany
Yes all keys are working - some of them have to be pressed down a little stronger - but this don't work for Key "1" an key "Q"

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Re: This is not a language

Post by danielj » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:04 pm

Just checked in mine - it's the non-cmos version like those. However, those are definitely "remanufactured" so you're taking a bit of a risk, but if you speak to Dave Hitchins on here he can definitely get you sorted out :) daveejhitchins :)

d.

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Re: This is not a language

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:08 pm

So the type of VIA chips used (for IC8) in one of my Master 128 machines are G65SC22P-2

Further details and a photo in this thread.

It’s likely that any CMOS version will work. The Western Design Centre still make new ones, see here.

Mark

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Re: This is not a language

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:11 pm

Dave H. :D (user name daveejhitchins on here) carries NMOS R6522 VIA chips at a very reasonable price. He tests his before dispatch, so well worth trying one of his.

Mark

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Re: This is not a language

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:21 pm

Mouser sells brand new WDC W65C22 CMOS types. This is the link for the U.K. Mouser web site.

Mark

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Re: This is not a language

Post by danielj » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:27 pm

I'm assuming they used nmos/cmos ones interchangeably then, as mine are definitely nmos! :)

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Re: This is not a language

Post by Elminster » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:31 am

I usually fit brand new wdc6522N’s which are the NMOS (edit: replacement versions), I have some S’s as well and I thought I tried them and the machine didn’t like it but that probably wasted a master.

I guess the safest would be to determine what type of 6522 is fitted currently and just replace with same. I.e. either old NMOS or modern wdc6522n.
Last edited by Elminster on Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: This is not a language

Post by 1024MAK » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:03 am

The WDC W65C22S6TPG-14 is a CMOS chip for new designs, as the interrupt pin (IRQB) output is a totem pole type which should not be directly connected to existing circuit designs if more than one device is connected to the CPU's interrupt input.

The WDC W65C22N6TPG-14 is also a CMOS chip, but designed to be compatible with previous CMOS 65C22 and NMOS 6522 designs. This is the correct type for use in a Beeb.

Note, there is only one seller on eBay that is known to supply genuine WDC chips. Other sellers that appear to sell WDC chips, are likely to be selling remarked chips.

Mark

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Re: This is not a language

Post by DutchAcorn » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:12 am

Jungsi wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:39 pm
You are right - there is a problem with the LED. Turning on the Master only the middle LED is on (Caps Lock?).
Caps Lock and Shift lock have no effect - no LED is turning on or off.....
So the power led (left led) is not on? And what if you hammer the caps lock and shift lock keys a bit (they may have corroded as well?).

How is the 6522 related to the cmos function?
Paul

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Re: This is not a language

Post by roganjosh » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:10 am

1024MAK wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:03 am
The WDC W65C22S6TPG-14 is a CMOS chip for new designs, as the interrupt pin (IRQB) output is a totem pole type which should not be directly connected to existing circuit designs if more than one device is connected to the CPU's interrupt input.

The WDC W65C22N6TPG-14 is also a CMOS chip, but designed to be compatible with previous CMOS 65C22 and NMOS 6522 designs. This is the correct type for use in a Beeb.

Note, there is only one seller on eBay that is known to supply genuine WDC chips. Other sellers that appear to sell WDC chips, are likely to be selling remarked chips.

Mark
Very good to know they're still made and thanks for the type warning. I suppose if anyone has bought the S type in error then they might get it working by lifting IRQB and sticking a diode in line?

Alan

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Re: This is not a language

Post by 1024MAK » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:40 am

DutchAcorn wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:12 am
How is the 6522 related to the cmos function?
All data and control lines for the CMOS RTC (Real Time Clock) chip are routed via the system VIA (6522 / 65C22). I posted details above.

Mark

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Re: This is not a language

Post by Elminster » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:43 am

1024MAK wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:03 am
The WDC W65C22S6TPG-14 is a CMOS chip for new designs, as the interrupt pin (IRQB) output is a totem pole type which should not be directly connected to existing circuit designs if more than one device is connected to the CPU's interrupt input.

The WDC W65C22N6TPG-14 is also a CMOS chip, but designed to be compatible with previous CMOS 65C22 and NMOS 6522 designs. This is the correct type for use in a Beeb.

Note, there is only one seller on eBay that is known to supply genuine WDC chips. Other sellers that appear to sell WDC chips, are likely to be selling remarked chips.

Mark
Thought you meant you were running the S version. Have amended my post to be less ambiguous.

I have bought wdc from eBay before without issue, will have to check which buyer.

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