IDE interfaces - hardware details

Arc/RPCs, peripherals, RISCOS operating system & ARM kit eg GP2x, BeagleBoard
alienkidmj12
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by alienkidmj12 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:21 pm

Do these work on a3000, and support biggish hds ?

thanks

dave

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IanS
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:35 pm

alienkidmj12 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:21 pm
Do these work on a3000, and support biggish hds ?
Both would work on an A3000 (the only machine with an 8-bit internal podule slot and an external 16-bit podule connector)

On a RISC OS 3.11 machine (e.g. A3000) they support up to 2GB of space (4 partitions of 512MB each)

aotta
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:14 pm

my burner accept only .jed files for GAL programming, and i didn't find an easy tool to compile source if3.PLD posted by IanS: anyone can attach the jed files please?

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by RobC » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:55 pm

aotta wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:14 pm
my burner accept only .jed files for GAL programming, and i didn't find an easy tool to compile source if3.PLD posted by IanS: anyone can attach the jed files please?
Try the attached file - I've just created it with WinCupl so haven't been able to test it etc.
Attachments
IF3.zip
(671 Bytes) Downloaded 13 times

aotta
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:13 pm

RobC wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:55 pm
aotta wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:14 pm
my burner accept only .jed files for GAL programming, and i didn't find an easy tool to compile source if3.PLD posted by IanS: anyone can attach the jed files please?
Try the attached file - I've just created it with WinCupl so haven't been able to test it etc.
Thank you very much Rob, i spent hours with Lattice suite with no success, didn't know about WinCupl.. i'll get a look for next time!

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:46 pm

i made one IanS IDE card (IIC, it sounds good!;) and it works... only one time! :roll:

if i format with raspberry a microSD card, then i partition it with zidefs tool, then i got harddisc0 and i can use it perfectly... since a reset or power cycle.
At reboot, disk is empty and not formatted.
May be cause of the sdcard? i tested five or six of them, and with a lexar 4gb i get it worked for 3 or 4 times..
Nothing to do with CF card interface, i can't format them.

Any idea or suggestion?

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IanS
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:53 pm

aotta wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:46 pm
if i format with raspberry a microSD card, then i partition it with zidefs tool, then i got harddisc0 and i can use it perfectly... since a reset or power cycle.
That sounds the wrong way round.
You should partition the disk, then format (only need to initialise them) with !hform. It can all be done on the A30x0.
Have you got a patched version of !hform?

Is this the 8-bit version? Are you using it in an A3000, A3010 or A3020?

Do you have any pictures?
Last edited by IanS on Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aotta
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:27 pm

I read the zidefs' guide, but !hform patched give an error "number too big" when computing Sec*Head*Cyl*Park...
i made a patch to bypass the error, but when program finish the disk is not recognized as formatted.
With the only "partition", if previously formatted the SD card with the Rasperry, it works... but any writing on disk seems corrupt it.
firsttimeworks.jpg
And here a pic of the board... only small difference from your original design is the capacitor not axial and the 2 transistors, as i use different pnp ones... but i think they only are used for led, if i am not wrong.
IIC.jpg

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IanS
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:39 pm

Which version of hform are you using?
All my formatting on RISC OS 3.11 has been using version 2.19 (24 Apr 92). It's the version that is on Apps disc 2 - http://www.riscos.com/ftp_space/310/index.htm

You will only be able to partition it up to 512MB per partition (499MB is a better choice).

The transistors are only for the activity LED, and are not critical.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:53 pm

i use the same !hform, patched with zidefs tool, but if i change the shape, i get the number too big error at line 1820, if i retain the shape, format finish but fails with disc not understood at line 60 after writing the directory.
And i tested card with my A3000, same issue.
I configured zidefsdrive 1 and zidefsdiscs 1 and zidefsdrive 4, is it right for only one 500 mb partition?

Thank Ian for your support!

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IanS
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:01 pm

Does the output of the DeviceID program look sensible (does it match the size of the device you are using?)

With zidefsdrive 1 and zidefsdiscs 1 and zidefsdrive 4, when you run the partion program it should allow you to set the size of the partition. Then reboot the machine (prefreably a power-cycle). If you then re-run the partition program does it show the correct data still?

Has all your testing been with the same IDE device, have you got any others you can try?

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:35 pm

when partitioning with zidefs tools, partition is lost after reboot. Tested with sd to ide and cf to ide adapter, and a few cf and sd card... best results with sd adaptor in the picture above, and now i think it worked some times becouse i get a format finished with no error, probably i tried format without reboot after partitioning.
But i made thousands tests and i can't replicate it... or may be it worked only one time

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:52 pm

Resolved!! :D
Since i had problem when writing, i made some test copying some text from floppy to hd, and noticed the second letter of each pair sometime was shifted by one character, so... the 9th bit was not working!
A closer look with a lens and.. a pin was not soldered fine: a quick resolder and now i finally have 4 500mb partition in my A4000!
In the next days i'll assemble another pcb, so my A3000 will got an hd too!

Thank you for all your work (and for sharing with us) =D> and support Ian!

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IanS
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:54 pm

Well done tracking that down. Good to know it's now working.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by Cutter » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:04 am

IanS wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:35 pm
alienkidmj12 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:21 pm
Do these work on a3000, and support biggish hds ?
Both would work on an A3000 (the only machine with an 8-bit internal podule slot and an external 16-bit podule connector)
This sounds great. Reason being I have the internal podule slot and backplane on my A3000 filled with a user port / analogue port card already, and don't really want to have to swap podules in / out. But I'm also greedy and want both - I want to retain the user port for control for a robotics project and have the IDE podule for the sheer convenience factor of not having to mess about with FDs and RAM disks...

:)

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BCCweirdo
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by BCCweirdo » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:56 pm

Hi !

Would love to build one, but how can I program the GAL?

Do you know a programmer I can actually buy able to program those components?

Thanks.

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IanS
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:20 pm

Many eprom programmers will program GAL devices . (I use a wellon VP-290)

Have you tried getting in contact with aotta, as he has built his own version, so has access to GAL devices and programming equipment, and appears to also be in Italy.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:30 pm

I used Tl866, very common burner, and i can share the .jed file used if needed. The 8 bit version was posted above by RobC anyway.

...and yes, as IanS noted, am in Italy if you need support! 😁

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BCCweirdo
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by BCCweirdo » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:13 am

aotta wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:30 pm
I used Tl866, very common burner, and i can share the .jed file used if needed. The 8 bit version was posted above by RobC anyway.

...and yes, as IanS noted, am in Italy if you need support! 😁
Thanks!

Would you be willing to sell me an already programmed GAL?

That would spare me to buy another programmer just for this project.

Thanks again for any help :)

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:33 am

BCCweirdo wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:13 am
aotta wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:30 pm
I used Tl866, very common burner, and i can share the .jed file used if needed. The 8 bit version was posted above by RobC anyway.

...and yes, as IanS noted, am in Italy if you need support! 😁
Thanks!

Would you be willing to sell me an already programmed GAL?

That would spare me to buy another programmer just for this project.

Thanks again for any help :)
yes, i can send you a programmed gal at shipping cost, even if i tested only the 8-bit version ( i am waiting for the 16 bit connector and, more important, repair the A5000 i bought not working on ebay.. :lol: ).

Please PM me your address and the version of interface you are going to made

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BCCweirdo
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by BCCweirdo » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:47 am

aotta wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:33 am
BCCweirdo wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:13 am
aotta wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:30 pm
I used Tl866, very common burner, and i can share the .jed file used if needed. The 8 bit version was posted above by RobC anyway.

...and yes, as IanS noted, am in Italy if you need support! 😁
Thanks!

Would you be willing to sell me an already programmed GAL?

That would spare me to buy another programmer just for this project.

Thanks again for any help :)
yes, i can send you a programmed gal at shipping cost, even if i tested only the 8-bit version ( i am waiting for the 16 bit connector and, more important, repair the A5000 i bought not working on ebay.. :lol: ).

Please PM me your address and the version of interface you are going to made
PM sent :)

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by CJE-4D » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:47 pm

Recommendations for connector source please.
For our version of IanS's interface we will be optionally fitting a 44way female (horizontal entry) to let IDE to CF and IDE to SD interfaces be plugged in directly. We can get: https://uk.farnell.com/samtec/mms-122-0 ... dp/1808117 but with their quantity price of £5.51+VAT I'm looking for a cheaper source. Toby were doing a 50way (that we could cut down) at a reasonable price but they've now told me the MOQ is 500! Can anyone think of an alternatives cheaper source please?

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by aotta » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:18 pm

i used simple "male pin strip" bought for pennies in the bay, cutted and soldered in 2 rows... if you have to cut.. what's about doing same thing with female ones?

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IanS
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:14 pm

CJE-4D wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:47 pm
Recommendations for connector source please.
For our version of IanS's interface we will be optionally fitting a 44way female (horizontal entry) to let IDE to CF and IDE to SD interfaces be plugged in directly. We can get: https://uk.farnell.com/samtec/mms-122-0 ... dp/1808117 but with their quantity price of £5.51+VAT I'm looking for a cheaper source. Toby were doing a 50way (that we could cut down) at a reasonable price but they've now told me the MOQ is 500! Can anyone think of an alternatives cheaper source please?
So do you have the board spacing for the DH version?
ide-dh.PNG
ide-dh.PNG (5.78 KiB) Viewed 276 times
If so, going to have to hope you can find another connector with the same spacing.

Is your hole spacing between rows 2mm or 4.7mm?

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by CJE-4D » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:43 pm

aotta wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:18 pm
i used simple "male pin strip" bought for pennies in the bay, cutted and soldered in 2 rows... if you have to cut.. what's about doing same thing with female ones?
Female vertical are quite a bit more than "male pin strip" but it is the need for the connector to be horizontal that's putting the price through the roof.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by CJE-4D » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:47 pm

IanS wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:14 pm
CJE-4D wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:47 pm
Recommendations for connector source please.
For our version of IanS's interface we will be optionally fitting a 44way female (horizontal entry) to let IDE to CF and IDE to SD interfaces be plugged in directly. We can get: https://uk.farnell.com/samtec/mms-122-0 ... dp/1808117 but with their quantity price of £5.51+VAT I'm looking for a cheaper source. Toby were doing a 50way (that we could cut down) at a reasonable price but they've now told me the MOQ is 500! Can anyone think of an alternatives cheaper source please?
So do you have the board spacing for the DH version?
ide-dh.PNG
If so, going to have to hope you can find another connector with the same spacing.

Is your hole spacing between rows 2mm or 4.7mm?
We have holes at both 2mm & 4.7mm so can fit pins or the horizontal female DH version.

I think some people will be willing to pay the extra for a neater solution, the question is how many?
Last edited by CJE-4D on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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danielj
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by danielj » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:10 pm

Therein lies the perpetual gamble :)

- further, I'd just make a feature of the holes being there and save yourself the hassle. If people want to purchase the part and pay to have it fitted, or fit it themselves then they can take the cost on the chin.

d.
Last edited by danielj on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by AndyMc1280 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:15 pm

I'm going to (possibly) throw a very late spanner in the trumpet.

I'm fortunate to have a V6C Baildon APDL 16Bit card and a 8Bit A31in 5B.

In the course of my fiddling, The 6C got flashed to IDEFS 3.28, which allows me to have a stupendously long Bar of 8 500+Mb drives on a partitioned 4GB CF card.

The 5B in my A3010 had Idefs 3.21, which (unfortunately) only allowed 4 partitions to be seen by the OS. In the dim and distant past, I recall a huge email conversation with @RobC and a few others whereby we managed to get the 3.28 IDEFS from my 6C and were endeavouring to get it in a rom chip for the 5B on my A3010.... Reliability of the A3010, stopped me from accomplishing this goal and actually testing. A3010 is on the "to be sorted" list.

Now, the card showing 8 partitions in my R260 is exactly the same as only showed 4 in the A3010. If either/Both of the new boards can be flashed with the newer IDEFS module, then surely 8 partitions is also feasible ?

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IanS
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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by IanS » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:33 pm

AndyMc1280 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:15 pm
If either/Both of the new boards can be flashed with the newer IDEFS module, then surely 8 partitions is also feasible ?
The boards I produced are not hardware compatible with any Baildon cards. IDEFS software module don't just magically work with any IDE hardware interface.

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Re: IDE interfaces - hardware details

Post by AndyMc1280 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:02 pm

IanS wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:33 pm
The boards I produced are not hardware compatible with any Baildon cards. IDEFS software module don't just magically work with any IDE hardware interface.
Ok Ok, was only asking lol. :mrgreen:
I'd rather not have to reformat and start again, thats why I mentioned it, but if I have do set up a clean card so be it..
Go you , rewriting your own IDEFS... braver than me lol.
Last edited by AndyMc1280 on Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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