Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

threads for previous weeknight 'developer' sessions
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Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Arcadian » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:38 pm

As the new games and demo coding sections of the forum are currently very active, we are launching a new, weeknight "Dev session" on Zoom, that will primarily be focused on the development of new games and graphics/music demos for Acorn computers.

They will take place on a Thursday evening, on the week in-between the 2 x Tuesday night 'general' sessions, between 7pm and 10pm. So the first "proper" session will be on Thursday 20th August.

We are also holding a kick-off session this week, on Thursday 6th August where we'll get input on what content should be covered and how the sessions should run (e.g. fully structured, like the Saturday vABugs - unstructured, like the Tuesday sessions, or somewhere in-between!). Feel free to leave any thoughts or suggestions in this thread!

The sessions are intended for developers to share progress updates and request/offer help and feedback. We hope that these sessions will help motivate and encourage developers to see projects through to completion.

Just to be clear - these sessions are open to everyone: programmers, graphics artists and musicians, even if you've just got an interest/appreciation of - or ideas for - new games and demos, please come along for moral support - there may be opportunities to beta-test new versions of upcoming projects :).

There will still be time to look at active projects during the 6th August session, so if there are any issues you'd like help with - or would like to demonstrate something - please leave details in the thread and we'll add them to the list:


Topics
  1. Some help needed with game loop timings and VSync / interrupts (Snuggsy187)


Attended
  1. Arcadian (Dave).
  2. Tricky (Richard).
  3. oss003 (Kees).
  4. Snuggsy187 (Neil).
  5. Naomasa298 (Shane).
  6. SarahWalker (Sarah).
  7. dp11 (Dominic). First half only
  8. kieranhj (Kieran).
  9. dominicbeesley (Dominic).
  10. BigEd (Ed). (After 9pm)
  11. markdryan (Mark). (After 8pm)
  12. DaveFootitt (Dave).
  13. chrisn (Chris).
  14. sPhilMainwaring (Phil).
  15. spanners (David).
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Naomasa298 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:02 pm

I'd like to look for anyone open to collaboration, in particular in terms of game/plot design and graphics.

Possibly music, since to me, ENVELOPE is something you put LETTER in.

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by BigEd » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:41 pm

I can't make it this Thursday. But I would suggest actively keeping and updating a list of proposed queries or discussions, and keeping an eye on time so that any given conversation can continue if there's nothing cued up or can be brought to a close (or paused) if there is something else lined up.

Otherwise there's a danger of the first topic taking up a huge proportion of the time. We need a better way than interrupting, or waiting for a lull, to get a topic change. (I for one find it quite stressful to be waiting to chip in, and even more so if someone else chips in first. It needn't be like that.)

Perhaps 10 min slots with a virtual countdown? And a topic gets a second 10 mins if there's nothing else cued up. Or something like that.

There's nothing wrong with an extended discussion, so long as there was nothing else anyone wanted to cover - and there usually will be.

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by oss003 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:50 pm

Hi Dave,

I think that's a great idea .... it it always inspiring to show what you are doing. Like everyone, I also have a few unfinished projects and showing them with explaining what the problems are, would help to finish a project.

Subjects could be:

- I'm thinking of writing a demo,
- I'm thinking of writing a game,
- What could I write next?
- I'm having problems with ....
- How does it work ....

Greetings
Kees

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by tricky » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:40 pm

I like the idea of the games/demos dev chat and we do seem to have a few people making them now.
I don't know if a shorter one more often might be better, but we can discuss that at the end of the first one.
The main reason that I don't write new games is I have no ideas, so even if someone just has a game idea, that would be great.

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Arcadian » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:02 pm

Perhaps if we looked at 7pm - 9pm project chat, with a presentation at 9pm?

At the end of Tricky's talk at last Saturday's vABug he presented a selection of possibilities for future events - perhaps some of these could be presented at Dev sessions?

Image

Edit - again, but in text format:

Astro Blaster
Speech encoding using QBoxPro
Vertical rupture for split screen scrolling allowing aliens to stay still

Carnival
Code and data gen from animation for pipes and bears
Sound conversion from AY3-8910 register dumps

Centipede
Universal EOR sprite code
MIDI music conversion for the tunes

Frogger

Vertical rupture for hiding the sides of the screen
Tracker file converter for the music
Video NuLA support to allow Arcade colour scheme on beeb

Phoenix

Animation system to allow birds to walk and fly randomly
Miss programming of the palette to get more than 4 colours per scan line

Scramble
Software Scrolling 2 pixels per frame
Video splicer to create level maps from gameplay video
Various level encoders to convert the map into SW scrollable characters

Space Invaders
First game that I tried (and failed) to write in BASIC since MODE 7 space Invader since 1983
Sample playing during gameplay for shots and explosions
Attachments
Tricky_FurtherTalks.png
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by 0xC0DE » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:56 pm

I won't be there for the kick off session tomorrow evening, but I may be interested in attending future dev sessions. I strongly prefer having some structure to (most of) the session, just like the all-day sessions.
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by dominicbeesley » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:00 pm

Hi,

Dave's just pointed me at this. I'll try and drop in tomorrow evening. I've not got much to show but am interested in what everyone's doing

D

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by BigEd » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:12 pm

(I just might be free from 9pm, or thereabouts)

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by kieranhj » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:17 pm

By good fortune I am free tomorrow evening so will join for the full session. I look forward to seeing everyone online again. :)

I PM'd this to Arcadian, but on reflection warrants posting here for potential discussion tomorrow. I think it will be really important to establish the purpose & structure of these sessions to make them effective in the long run. Personally I find it difficult to give specific advice to people on how to move forward with their own projects, without first spending time to understand their goals, their abilities and finally the code. There is also a wide variation in how much different folks understand about 6502 and the BBC hardware. Without all that it will only ever be generic ideas & encouragement, that may be fine and a perfectly good use of the sessions, but we should be clear on that.

One thought I had is that perhaps there might be an opportunity for a series of ‘masterclasses’ from different people that help bring some technical knowledge to a wider audience? Essentially anything that has a chapter in the Advanced User Guide could easily have a class before you even get onto game / demo specific topics. E.g.
  • speeding up BASIC (for folks who are happy without 6502)
  • 6502 for beginners / advanced
  • graphics for beginners / advanced (e.g. screen modes, plotting sprites)
  • keyboard & joystick input (OS legal and direct to hw)
  • sound for beginners (OS legal) / advanced (direct to SN76489)
  • Beeb memory map and RAM paging
  • file systems - DFS, OSFILE, OSWORD &7F
  • interrupts & timers (VIA)
  • CRTC hacking for beginners/ advanced (e.g. hardware scrolling)
  • game loops & logic beginners / advanced (e.g. player controls, enemy movement, collision detection)
  • demo effects for beginners / advanced
  • compression of code, data, gfx
  • using the TUBE
That's already a lot of topics so it would have to be spread around as many presenters as possible. It might also help to keep preparation requirements down to a minimum so perhaps a fixed length (30 mins?) and/or fixed number of slides. It’s also sometimes quite difficult to teach the basics to beginners when you’re an expert, as you too easily overestimate their abilities, so a diverse set of presenters would help.

These are not 'what I've done' sessions like the Saturday vABUGs, but 'here's what you need to know' sessions. This is obviously a potential ton of work, but the upside would be that the slides and videos would essentially end up becoming a complete course in BBC Micro coding and an excellent reference...

Any thoughts?
Last edited by kieranhj on Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by BigEd » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:20 pm

I like it!

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Arcadian » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:56 pm

kieranhj wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:17 pm
One thought I had is that perhaps there might be an opportunity for a series of ‘masterclasses’ from different people that help bring some technical knowledge to a wider audience? Essentially anything that has a chapter in the Advanced User Guide could easily have a class before you even get onto game / demo specific topics. E.g.
  • speeding up BASIC (for folks who are happy without 6502)
  • 6502 for beginners / advanced
  • graphics for beginners / advanced (e.g. screen modes, plotting sprites)
  • keyboard & joystick input (OS legal and direct to hw)
  • sound for beginners (OS legal) / advanced (direct to SN76489)
  • Beeb memory map and RAM paging
  • file systems - DFS, OSFILE, OSWORD &7F
  • interrupts & timers (VIA)
  • CRTC hacking for beginners/ advanced (e.g. hardware scrolling)
  • game loops & logic beginners / advanced (e.g. player controls, enemy movement, collision detection)
  • demo effects for beginners / advanced
  • compression of code, data, gfx
  • using the TUBE
These are fabulous suggestions Kieran and it would be great if one of the aims of these Dev Nights were to be the creation of a video-based encyclopedia for would-be Acorn games/demo programmers, of all abilities.

I think it would be beneficial if we could try and identify a 'programme' of topics that covered all of the 8-bits I reckon e.g.

Advaced BASIC (Atom)
Advanced BASIC (BBC/Electron)
Advanced 6502 ASM (Atom/BBC/Electron)
Software scrolling (Atom)
Software scrolling (BBC/Electron)
Hardware scrolling (BBC)
etc etc

... so Atom/Elk/Beeb/Master are all taken into account (note the subjects provided are just rough examples, to illustrate how we should be incorporating the Atom, Electron and BBC into our plans).

We should ultimately try and do the same for the Arc too, but one step at a time!
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Snuggsy187 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:04 pm

Hi all,

Just some random thoughts, sorry if I'm repeating other people, or talking nonsense: :shock:

I like all the suggested topics, these Dev sessions could go into a bit more detailed technical areas that maybe doesn't always happen on the Saturday all-day events.

Definitely need to keep track of time taken on individuals 'problem' slots, so that things don't get overrun with one technical issue one person has, while other people may be getting bored and want to move on.

Eg: definitely not expecting people to delve into other people's code in search of solutions, so thinking more of a live debate for ideas, enthusiasm, help and maybe pointers to resources when someone says 'hey, this part of the AUG doesn't make sense to me'.

As Kieran says, programming knowledge and (me being one of these), terminology, will vary greatly from person to person.

Looking forward to tomorrow :D
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by markdryan » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:25 pm

I'd be interested in joining tomorrow evening (from 8pm to 10pm).


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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by kieranhj » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:40 pm

Arcadian wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:56 pm
These are fabulous suggestions Kieran and it would be great if one of the aims of these Dev Nights were to be the creation of a video-based encyclopedia for would-be Acorn games/demo programmers, of all abilities.

I think it would be beneficial if we could try and identify a 'programme' of topics that covered all of the 8-bits I reckon e.g.

Advaced BASIC (Atom)
Advanced BASIC (BBC/Electron)
Advanced 6502 ASM (Atom/BBC/Electron)
Software scrolling (Atom)
Software scrolling (BBC/Electron)
Hardware scrolling (BBC)
etc etc

... so Atom/Elk/Beeb/Master are all taken into account (note the subjects provided are just rough examples, to illustrate how we should be incorporating the Atom, Electron and BBC into our plans).

We should ultimately try and do the same for the Arc too, but one step at a time!
Thanks Dave. You are absolutely right this should cover all Acorn 8-bits and not just BBC! We should also canvas the group (and forum) for what topics would be most valuable, in order to get the best bang for preparation buck and make sure they are Acorn specific. E.g. on reflection, an intro to 6502 would probably take 10+ sessions and there must be a load of YouTube videos for this already anyway.

Using Snuggsy as an example (just because it’s listed!), I’d be happy to make suggestions on vsync / use of interrupts based on the challenges for their game but it’s going to be super-general without digging into the code. However you could imagine a 30 minute talk on ‘here’s how to do interrupts on the Beeb’, that includes small code examples for vsync and timer IRQs etc, which would be useful for Snuggsy to reference against their own implementation and anyone else then looking to do similar at a later date.

Anyway, there’s clearly room in 3 hours for various types of content and be good to hear tomorrow what people feel they’d like to get out of the sessions.
Bitshifters Collective | Retro Code & Demos for BBC Micro & Acorn computers | https://bitshifters.github.io/

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Arcadian » Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:46 pm

Thanks Kieran agree with all of that.

In the case of Snuggsy's queries, he did actually give me a more detailed description of the issues in relation to his Pooyan conversion a couple of weeks ago, which I forwarded to Tricky so he could have a think about what kind of response to offer in the first Virtual Dev sesh in advance (do you want to post the 'expanded' breakdown of the issues you were having, Neil - so any other gurus can have a think about what to advise tomorrow?)
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Snuggsy187 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:17 pm

Thanks Dave :D

......So I'm having issues with game loop timings and VSync / interrupts etc.

Some years ago, started a little BBC clone of Galaxians with 40 aliens moving around the screen, scrolling starfield etc. Didn't consider VSync at all with this - just had the 0220 event 4 incrementing a counter, and then a delay loop within the main game-play loop checking on this counter. All was fine...... :shock:

With Pooyan moving multiple larger sprites (horizontally and vertically) around the screen, there's a lot of flicker. Obviously there's a lot going on here, but have refined the sprite printing a lot, storing backgrounds, using a mask table, erasing/printing sprites in the correct order etc., just getting myself confused on how to time the main loop, plus printing all the sprites at start of Vsync (or just before for that matter !)

(Yes, the BBC AUG chapters on this have me confused as well.....!) :?

As you say Kieran, a small presentation on interrupts etc would be extremely helpful to me, as long as it's of some interest to other participants !

Edit -
No wonder there's flicker. Just tried the &FE21 assist - sprite print routine for just 4 wolves doesn't finish until raster is 2/3rds down the screen !!
Pooyan-FE21.gif
Last edited by Snuggsy187 on Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Arcadian » Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:42 pm

Thx Neil!

Ok, I believe I've issued Zoom login info to everyone on the list so far.

If more people want to sign up then I'm happy to continue issuing Zoom logins throughout Thursday daytime (and I'll try and keep an eye on the sign-up thread during the session too, in case there are any late-comers).

Thanks to everyone that's signed up so far! :D
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by chrisn » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:43 pm

Hi Dave, I'll try to join this evening.

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Arcadian » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:55 pm

chrisn wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:43 pm
Hi Dave, I'll try to join this evening.
Login details PM'd.

If anybody else would like to join us this evening please post in the thread and I'll send over the Zoom logins...
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by z0m8ied0g » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:40 pm

I'll try and attend if there is space, depends on a bunch of stuff. Will be after 8pm at least.
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Arcadian » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:26 pm

z0m8ied0g wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:40 pm
I'll try and attend if there is space, depends on a bunch of stuff. Will be after 8pm at least.
Super - have PM'd you the login details.

There's no real limit on the weeknight sessions btw (unless we start getting near 50 participants which is very unlikely!)
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by tricky » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:32 pm

Looks like avoiding flicker may be on the list :)

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Snuggsy187 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:39 pm

Quite possibly ! :D

I think the problem I'm having may have moved away from timing, and is more along the lines of:
Is it remotely possible to do this amount of sprite work in the time available ! :shock:

Anyway, looking forward to the session ! :D
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by flibble » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:06 pm

I realise this is a little late, but can I come. I'd managed to miss this in the other posts :D

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Arcadian » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:20 pm

Sure flibble will PM you the logins shortly ...
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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by sPhilMainwaring » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:31 pm

Dave

You sent me a link but didn't add me to the list ... see my post above :)

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Dave Footitt » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:33 am

Thanks for this - good relaxed atmosphere, some great projects and plenty of knowledge to share!

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Re: Weeknight 'Virtual' Dev session #0, Thursday 6th August 2020, 7pm - 10pm

Post by Arcadian » Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:33 am

Thanks everyone - enjoyed that - hope it was of use/benefit!

Here is the 'loose' schedule we agreed on for the next Dev night on Thurs 20th (which assumes someone steps forward to deliver the first 'Masterclass'! :mrgreen: )

Schedule-v1.png

I'll post a sign-up thread for the session on the 20th early-mid next week ... next up of course we have the General Acorn session, on Tuesday 11th.
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