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Re: Archive of FSD files?

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:05 am
by scarybeasts
CMcDougall wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:25 pm
hi Chris, thanks for indepth details of the must be protected *early* disc 8)
(as BillC has not confirmed from pg2 :shock: )
your point 4 gave the game away, as mine is a flippy (40 on sideA, 80 sideB)
so hence does not need to check for a 40 or 80T drive :idea:

here is mine copied using UPURS, just checked & still copies easily with *COPY / BACKUP
so did remember rightly :D
To close this one out -- my "The Living Daylights" disc arrived. It's a 40T/80T flippy but it is protected like @billcarr's FSD. Track 2 is formatted as 18 sectors but the first 10 claim to be 256 bytes long; the sector IDs for those are in decrementing order; and the last 8 sectors are "hidden" with sector IDs 0 (and the other three header bytes zero).

Seems like another game where both protected and unprotected versions were sold.


Cheers
Chris

Re: Archive of FSD files?

Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 5:24 pm
by vanekp
scarybeasts wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 10:36 am

That's a great offer -- but I'm working on a tool that should enable people to archive discs to HFE with good fidelity with only a beeb (no special hardware needed). Would you be willing to see if it is able to archive these two discs?

Few possible issues to get out of the way:
1) Currently the tool requires an 8271 equipped beeb. I intend to add 1770 support once I've purchased a 1770 board.
2) It currently only works on discs that were mastered track-at-a-time and not written since. This does seem to apply to many / most(?) commercial discs -- including my original model B Acornsoft Elite disc.
3) You need a way to get the data off the beeb. Currently it writes data to the "disc" in drive 1 and for me that's a Gotek with a DSD file mapped in.

Do you happen to have an 8271 equipped beeb to try this with?


Cheers
Chris
I did something similar on the weekend using a normal 5.25 drive and a gotek and used Enigma DiscImager to make copies of my BBC disc's to hfe's on the gotek seem to be much better working images than via Kryoflux, am waiting for the bits to come in to try with Greaseweazle.

Re: Archive of FSD files?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 9:23 pm
by scarybeasts
vanekp wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 5:24 pm
I did something similar on the weekend using a normal 5.25 drive and a gotek and used Enigma DiscImager to make copies of my BBC disc's to hfe's on the gotek seem to be much better working images than via Kryoflux, am waiting for the bits to come in to try with Greaseweazle.
That sounds fascinating. Would you be willing to describe the process in more detail?


Cheers
Chris

Re: Archive of FSD files?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 10:04 pm
by vanekp
scarybeasts wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:23 pm
vanekp wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 5:24 pm
I did something similar on the weekend using a normal 5.25 drive and a gotek and used Enigma DiscImager to make copies of my BBC disc's to hfe's on the gotek seem to be much better working images than via Kryoflux, am waiting for the bits to come in to try with Greaseweazle.
That sounds fascinating. Would you be willing to describe the process in more detail?


Cheers
Chris
sure was not that complicated, I 1st made a blank .hfe file on beebjit which I then copied to my USB stick to mount in the gotek.
connected my normal floppy drive as drive 0 and the gotek as drive 1 I guess it does not matter which way around you connect them.
and using the EnigmaDiscImager-109.rom with the backup command *DBACK <Sdr><Ddr>(No Trks)(0/1)
so if the source is 0 (floppy) and destination drive 1 (gotek) and 80 tracks then
*DBACK 0 1 80
and Enigma was able to make working copy's of things like doctor who and Vector2 without a problem, even vector2 could not copy doctor who (sends the heads up the spindle).

Greaseweazle I am not having much luck with it reading disks, writing a hfe to a BBC disc works fine but reading to hfe or spc is not not giving me 1:1 working copy's of the disc's, its not total junk but i get clock errors on the images more here .

Re: Archive of FSD files?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2020 10:33 pm
by scarybeasts
vanekp wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 10:04 pm
sure was not that complicated, I 1st made a blank .hfe file on beebjit which I then copied to my USB stick to mount in the gotek.
connected my normal floppy drive as drive 0 and the gotek as drive 1 I guess it does not matter which way around you connect them.
and using the EnigmaDiscImager-109.rom with the backup command *DBACK <Sdr><Ddr>(No Trks)(0/1)
so if the source is 0 (floppy) and destination drive 1 (gotek) and 80 tracks then
*DBACK 0 1 80
and Enigma was able to make working copy's of things like doctor who and Vector2 without a problem, even vector2 could not copy doctor who (sends the heads up the spindle).
Thanks, I'll give that a try!
Greaseweazle I am not having much luck with it reading disks, writing a hfe to a BBC disc works fine but reading to hfe or spc is not not giving me 1:1 working copy's of the disc's, its not total junk but i get clock errors on the images more here .
That's interesting. Given that both the KryoFlux and Greaseweazle are having trouble, perhaps it's something with the drive? The drive sounded like an older Mitsubishi. I have an older Chinon drive and had challenges with some of its electrical properties when wiring it up in.... creative ways. In the end I got it reliable by yanking out the bus termination resistor array. I think it was 150ohm and that was just too low a resistance when driving the drive with something other than the disc drive port. If you wanted to start with something less drastic, maybe try different cables -- do you have a shorter one?


Cheers
Chris

Re: Archive of FSD files?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 5:53 am
by vanekp
scarybeasts wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 10:33 pm
Greaseweazle I am not having much luck with it reading disks, writing a hfe to a BBC disc works fine but reading to hfe or spc is not not giving me 1:1 working copy's of the disc's, its not total junk but i get clock errors on the images more here .
That's interesting. Given that both the KryoFlux and Greaseweazle are having trouble, perhaps it's something with the drive? The drive sounded like an older Mitsubishi. I have an older Chinon drive and had challenges with some of its electrical properties when wiring it up in.... creative ways. In the end I got it reliable by yanking out the bus termination resistor array. I think it was 150ohm and that was just too low a resistance when driving the drive with something other than the disc drive port. If you wanted to start with something less drastic, maybe try different cables -- do you have a shorter one?


Cheers
Chris
It could be the drive though when I use it on the BBC it seems to work fine, reading and writing. Mine does not have the terminator in and was wondering if that was a problem but you say you have had problems with it in, also tried putting 1k resistors in there, no difference.
My Greaseweazle is the F1: Based on the STM32F103 MCU and the "Blue Pill" development board, and is directly connected to the new drive cable I made, I did wonder if it needs the 1.5K pull up resistors as I have no interface board just directly wired, and did wonder about the cable length as I put a 1m cable on it, its not mentioned anywhere that it needs to be as short as possible but I guess I could try that.
Otherwise it could be the drive itself as you mentioned. Its a Mitsubishi M4853-112M, I have no other BBC drive to try to eliminate that as the problem.

Re: Archive of FSD files?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 6:18 am
by scarybeasts
vanekp wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:53 am
scarybeasts wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 10:33 pm
Greaseweazle I am not having much luck with it reading disks, writing a hfe to a BBC disc works fine but reading to hfe or spc is not not giving me 1:1 working copy's of the disc's, its not total junk but i get clock errors on the images more here .
That's interesting. Given that both the KryoFlux and Greaseweazle are having trouble, perhaps it's something with the drive? The drive sounded like an older Mitsubishi. I have an older Chinon drive and had challenges with some of its electrical properties when wiring it up in.... creative ways. In the end I got it reliable by yanking out the bus termination resistor array. I think it was 150ohm and that was just too low a resistance when driving the drive with something other than the disc drive port. If you wanted to start with something less drastic, maybe try different cables -- do you have a shorter one?


Cheers
Chris
It could be the drive though when I use it on the BBC it seems to work fine, reading and writing. Mine does not have the terminator in and was wondering if that was a problem but you say you have had problems with it in,
To be fair, I've also had plenty of problems with the resistor array out :)

A 1m cable with no terminator array might be pushing it. The thing most likely to fail is the high frequency signals such as the read pin and the write pin.
See: https://retrocmp.de/fdd/general/resistor.htm


Cheers
Chris

Re: Archive of FSD files?

Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 1:35 pm
by vanekp
Shortened the cable to 10cm still the same result, terminated both sided with 1K resistors with much the same results.
Does not leave a lot over but the drive itself, even though it works fine on the BBC but not on both Kryoflux and Greaseweazle :cry:

Re: Archive of FSD files?

Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 12:35 am
by scarybeasts
vanekp wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 1:35 pm
Shortened the cable to 10cm still the same result, terminated both sided with 1K resistors with much the same results.
Does not leave a lot over but the drive itself, even though it works fine on the BBC but not on both Kryoflux and Greaseweazle :cry:
In case you had a scope, it'd be interesting to capture the read pin output at the greaseweazle end of things:
- Are the high/low voltages clearly distinguished within the TTL acceptable ranges?
- Are the edges of the read pulses nice and square?
- Are the read pulse widths within spec?

I also have an in-development BBC disc program. It can tell you the rotation speed of the drive in case you're curious :)


Cheers
Chris

Re: Archive of FSD files?

Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:31 pm
by vanekp
I have a rather old 35Mhz scope this is at 1v per dev 5us
20200603_211659.jpg
not sure how its suppose to look but its at-least 5v pp

and yes it may be an idea to check the rotation speed of the drive, so your program will come in handy.

Re: Archive of FSD files?

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:28 am
by scarybeasts
vanekp wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:31 pm
I have a rather old 35Mhz scope this is at 1v per dev 5us
Wow! Looks like it belongs in a museum :-)

While browsing around, I did find these greaseweazles for sale: https://www.sellmyretro.com/offer/detai ... b-_b-43881

One of the lines in the description of changes (from the original board) caught my eye:
"Added stronger buffers for driving 5.25" drives with higher current pull-up resistors."

So it does sound like there are some 5.25" drives out there with more challenging electronic setups...


Cheers
Chris