Post Edits

feedback, comments and suggestions pertaining to the *. forums

Do you wish to be able to see whether posts have been edited?

Poll ended at Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:44 pm

Yes - you will see the number of times any post has been edited and who edited it last, including when mods/admins have.
23
72%
No - you won't see when posts have been edited, but mods and admins still will.
9
28%
 
Total votes: 32

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danielj
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Post Edits

Post by danielj » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:44 pm

So far as we can tell here, there are two choices given the way the forum software is currently set up.

We appreciate there are other options which involve allowing editing of the head posts and not other posts, but we want people to be able to edit any post as they see fit (this is the way it's always been).

(This is running for 5 days!)

-> New Feature:
If you don't like seeing every single time a post has been edited, you can choose a new "style" in the user control panel which mutes this, but shows you the "Edited by" line when someone has added a reason for their edit.
Last edited by danielj on Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Post Edits

Post by danielj » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:55 pm

I should add, I'm not going to vote in this!

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MartinB
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Re: Post Edits

Post by MartinB » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:53 pm

No, I'm not clear on this....
Daniel wrote:....we want people to be able to edit any post as they see fit (this is the way it's always been).

The way it's always been is that if your post is either the only post in a thread or the last in a thread then you can edit at will and no 'Last edited..." will be seen. If someone subsequently adds another post such that yours is no longer the last, any further edits that you carry out to your post will then be seen. Simple, clear and helpful and this scheme doesn't make people with an attention to detail and clarity look like imbeciles.

Now, since the recent change, for any post, regardless of the post's position in a thread or regardless of whether someone has replied or not, as soon as you press 'Submit', any subsequent edits (e.g. correction of grammar, punctuation or spelling, addition or correction of facts etc etc), will trigger the edit message and each and every edit will increment the counter.

Are we voting on these two, or now only the second (the most recent and the one that I and others object to) versus no edit evidence shown under any circumstances? (i.e. two very poor choices?)
Last edited by MartinB on Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:57 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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danielj
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Re: Post Edits

Post by danielj » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:17 pm

MartinB wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:53 pm
No, I'm not clear on this....
Daniel wrote:....we want people to be able to edit any post as they see fit (this is the way it's always been).
That was specifically in relation to a suggestion that we time-limit how long people have to edit posts... We don't want to do that, and we've never done that.
Last edited by danielj on Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sydney
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Re: Post Edits

Post by sydney » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:18 pm

Yes. You're voting on what you see as being poor choices, but what other people might not be that bothered about.
And FWIW - I don't think edits make anyone look like imbeciles - we all do it. It doesn't matter a jot. :) I honestly don't care if someone sees that I've edited something 10 times (I frequently do!) :)

We've made some changes which are there to keep everything more transparent for everyone (i.e. you can always see when a mod's got involved), and we can keep track of what we've changed if there are any disputes (this is something that's been the bane of several situations which you won't be aware of). The byproduct of this is that editing any post with or without a reason entered will clock up an edit count.

I'll also not be voting.

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MartinB
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Re: Post Edits

Post by MartinB » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:23 pm

Thanks. I just wanted it to be clear to everyone because I don't think its by any means obvious what the options are.

(I too shall not vote but that's because I don't like either option. I'll therefore leave it to those who can identify a better of the two 8) )

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Richard Russell
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Re: Post Edits

Post by Richard Russell » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:18 pm

sydney wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:18 pm
I don't think edits make anyone look like imbeciles - we all do it.
Imbecile no, but for the record I absolutely will be far more reluctant to post if it is evident to all that I have made multiple edits. You can call me silly if you like, but I've always felt that way and I always will. :(

Richard.

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Re: Post Edits

Post by lurkio » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:14 pm

What we seem to have stumbled upon here is one of the secrets of Stardot's success: the hitherto unacknowledged value of being able to edit last-in-thread posts "silently".

It's interesting to note that before the feature was lost nobody seemed to be calling for greater "transparency" about edits. That's probably because the system was working fine for everyone (or almost everyone).

Once the feature vanishes, however, it's inevitable that those who appreciated it are going to make a bit of a fuss (even as they accept that the change is probably irreversible and that the new behaviour might help with forum-moderation and troll-spotting).

:idea:

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Re: Post Edits

Post by davidb » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:29 pm

I only tend to "silently" edit if I'm fixing a typo, broken link or attachment. Other than for those reasons (and sometimes even for those), I put a reason for editing in the message because I think that, even if I could get away with a silent edit, I don't like the idea of tampering with a message that someone might have already read. It's like messing with someone's memory and I'm strongly against the idea of that.

Besides, if you refresh the RSS as often as I do, you'll get all the original messages anyway so nobody can really hide their mistakes. ;)

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Re: Post Edits

Post by lurkio » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:57 pm

davidb wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:29 pm
I only tend to "silently" edit if I'm fixing a typo, broken link or attachment.
So do most of the users who preferred the old forum behaviour, I suspect.
davidb wrote:Other than for those reasons (and sometimes even for those), I put a reason for editing in the message because I think that, even if I could get away with a silent edit, I don't like the idea of tampering with a message that someone might have already read. It's like messing with someone's memory and I'm strongly against the idea of that.
I think people are wanting to quickly fix typos and other errors rather than substantively alter the content of a post long after it was initially submitted -- much less "get away" with "tampering" or "messing with someone's memory", which sounds more like deliberate trolling, which is obviously unacceptable behaviour.
davidb wrote:Besides, if you refresh the RSS as often as I do, you'll get all the original messages anyway
I wasn't aware of this. How do you get an RSS feed?
davidb wrote:so nobody can really hide their mistakes.
It's not really about wanting to "hide" mistakes (which again has connotations of some sort of deception); it's about making sure your text is conveying the meaning that you intended it to convey, with clarity and precision -- quick tweaks before you're happy with how it reads (tweaks which you can't always spot before you hit Submit). In that context, a "Last edited" footer can give the wrong impression and is a bit misleading.

:idea:
Last edited by lurkio on Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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davidb
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Re: Post Edits

Post by davidb » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:20 am

I wasn't suggesting that people want the feature in order to be deceptive. My perspective is that it can be disorientating if you've read an original message then the author went back to change something. If you have a memory that picks up certain turns of phrase or snippets of information that were later removed or changed then it can be infuriating to go back and find those things, or at least difficult to search for the information associated with them.

Check the page source for the <link> tag which contains the URL of the forum's Atom feed.

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sweh
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Re: Post Edits

Post by sweh » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:35 am

I've never liked the traditional behaviour, but didn't care enough to complain or even comment on it.

People will _always_ complain about changes, no matter how minor; it's all about moving of cheese
Rgds
Stephen

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MartinB
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Re: Post Edits

Post by MartinB » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:05 am

Stephen wrote:People will _always_ complain about changes, no matter how minor;
That’s incredibly patronising Stephen and overtly implies that anyone who objects to this or any other change to the forum mechanisms isn’t capable of intelligent comment and argument. So if the software suddenly changes again and say limits posts to a maximum of 100 characters and there’s a consequent tide of complaint, in your view that’ll simply be because people are complaining for the sake of it? A very trite and unhelpful statement in my opinion.

It may well be the case that people typically don’t like change but more often than not it’s for very good reason. Here, it’s quite straightforward in that I’m genuinely concerned about mine and other people’s forum posts being being degraded by a wash of edit alerts. Already, browsing through recent threads I can see the rot with dozens of edit footers suddenly appearing and on a topic of interest where the discussive replies are reactive and interactive, you now need to study this small-print to see if a given edit occurred before or after the following posts. Previously, this wasn’t an issue because the majority of posts didn’t have edit alerts but if they did, you knew it was due to a later edit and not just because someone had been careful with their presentation during their original posting.

No, people are here arguing about a genuine step backwards, irrespective of how the change has come about.
Last edited by MartinB on Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:09 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Post Edits

Post by DutchAcorn » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:29 am

Well, this is about opinions, right?

I never knew that there was a difference in post edit notifications for a first post or later posts. I do recognise the comment David made about the disorientation of a silently edited post read later.

And once you post, people can and will read your post. If you care about quality posts, then preview, review and revise before you click 'Submit'. And we all make mistakes. I never interpreted the # times edited as an indication of carelessness.

To me the "last edited" information is useful and, although the # times edited has no value for me, these notifications do not distract or feel like "cluttering".
Paul

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sweh
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Re: Post Edits

Post by sweh » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:10 pm

MartinB wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:05 am
Stephen wrote:People will _always_ complain about changes, no matter how minor;
That’s incredibly patronising Stephen and overtly implies that anyone who objects to this or any other change to the forum mechanisms isn’t capable of intelligent comment and argument.
That you wrote this and also excluded the "cheese" link makes me think you didn't understand what I wrote and why I wrote it. Because it's exactly the opposite of patronising, and is a recognition that change is hard.

People fall into patterns of behaviour; they expect systems to respond in the way it's always responded; they form mental models. And when things disrupt that normality then there's mental dissonance. The change has now _broken_ how people work, what they expect. This is _acknowledging_ that change causes disruption.

The whole point of the "cheese" story is that people making changes need to realise that the change will cause disruption. Equally, those being disrupted need to recognise change happens.

In some respects this is similar to the "progressive" and "conservative" political parties... or at least their platonic ideals (unfortunately no real world party comes close). Sticking with what we know and what works is comfortable and easy (the conservative view) but changing things can cause improvements... at the cost of disruption (progressive view).

Note that none of this is saying that people are whiners or just objecting for no good reason. It's saying that people have good reason to push back on change. Their workflows are disrupted, their expectations are being forced to changed, they perceive a negative impact to the change...

So we come back to the point; no matter how small the change, _someone_ will find their cheese being moved.

I've moaned about this forum to my Lady in the past; pointed out a change that happened and then cried "they moved my cheese!"

This forum isn't overrun with trolls (except for ADFS, maybe!) so I assume everyone is arguing in good faith. Please ascribe the same to me.
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Post Edits

Post by 1024MAK » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:13 pm

sweh wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:10 pm
This forum isn't overrun with trolls
The moderator and admin team do their best to keep the forums neat and tidy, so that when the occasional bit of trouble breaks out, it is cleaned up quickly.

We are of course helped by members reporting any misbehaviour. So thank you to those members who have taken the trouble to send reports. You know who you are =D>

Mark

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danielj
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Re: Post Edits

Post by danielj » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:18 pm

I'll point out here too - there's a new forum style that can be used to mute the edit line in all situations other than when someone's entered a reason for the edit they've made. Select it in the user control panel:
new-board-style.png

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Re: Post Edits

Post by lurkio » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:37 pm

danielj wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:18 pm
... when someone's entered a reason for the edit they've made.
How do you enter a Reason for an edit?

:?:

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danielj
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Re: Post Edits

Post by danielj » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:39 pm

When you edit a post there should be a box at the bottom allowing you to enter the reason for the edit? Or is that only for mods?

d.

Edit: Only mods can enter a reason for the edit - so basically this will just show you where mods/admins have edited a post.
Last edited by danielj on Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: I'm a doofus

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Re: Post Edits

Post by CMcDougall » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:57 pm

See someone else has read the boring Who moved my cheese book!
I like the way it is, being can change silently before someone posts after it.
Also with stupid predicted text on useless Mobile phones nowaays (<nowadays :roll: ) that don't know retro slang , then have to edit it as never noticed it changing 'words' after a space :x

for mods, if you delete the last post or a thread it asks why, so I put Err (error), or Dup (duplicate)
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danielj
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Re: Post Edits

Post by danielj » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:05 pm

CMcDougall wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:57 pm
for mods, if you delete the last post or a thread it asks why, so I put Err (error), or Dup (duplicate)
That's fine - it shows up in the logs.

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Re: Post Edits

Post by CMcDougall » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:15 pm

^ usually Dup when on mobile, as when I press Submit , nothing happens , so I press again... again ... again,
Not forum software fault , just cap mobile phones or cap (cap? I wrote Crap !$#@) fibre bband :lol:

that's just me though, very impatient with new technology, it's 2018 :roll: & things should be instant nowadays!! 8)
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Re: Post Edits

Post by cmorley » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:23 pm

I don't have a complaint about the edited tags but the new 'auto draft saved!' which pops up every few seconds now with sliding CSS causing the options/attachments block to 'duck'... repeatedly... every few seconds... is /extremely/ annoying.
auto draft please stop.png

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Re: Post Edits

Post by danielj » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:27 pm

You can change the frequency of that in your control panel or turn it off completely.

.

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Re: Post Edits

Post by 1024MAK » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:06 pm

Just so you are all aware, only moderators and administrators get the box where a reason can be entered when editing a post.

So my recommendation is for members to add a line similar to this at the bottom of their post:
Edited due to <reason>
You can of course expand on this if you wish.

However, if deleting the last post in a thread, all members should be able to enter a reason. It is helpful if at least a brief reason is given, as it shows up in the moderators list.

Mark

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Re: Post Edits

Post by Coeus » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:02 am

Thinking on the "who moved my cheese" theme I had noticed, on various forums, that sometimes when I edit a post a line noting the fact appeared and sometimes it didn't. The mental model I had assumed for this, perhaps based on some other forum, was that the line appeared if someone else had viewed the post since you had first written it - certainly that would be the ideal behaviour. No need to note that a post took several revisions to get into its final form if no-one read the earlier versions but it does avoid someone being unsettled by finding a post to be not as remembered without explanation. Does the software for this forum not have that as an option?
Last edited by Coeus on Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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danielj
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Re: Post Edits

Post by danielj » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:16 am

Not with the setup we've got (believe me, we'd have put it into action and saved the hassle if it did). Also, posts are viewed pretty much instantly by the various feeds that come out of the forum software. The above really are the only two options on offer. To mitigate though, there's an improved drafts facility (see your control panel) and get into the habit of using preview rather than post in the first instance. Additionally you can now block that line if you find it really offensive.

We've had very few complaints about this given the number of users.
Last edited by danielj on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Post Edits

Post by Elminster » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:46 am

Rock and Hardplace spring to mind.

I know on Drupal systems i have setup before if you have to go off (piste) the distro/popular module and addons route it gets into a world of pain. Security issues, bugs, poor compatability will later version of Drupal where developer of module has stopped development. etc etc.

I am not sure I had actually noticed the edit feature had changed till Martin pointed it out. But probably cause I use lots of different forums and boards and they are all different, and I never remember which does what.

I also remember from being an moderator on a once popular linux firewall distro that people only contact you when they are cross about something :)

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Re: Post Edits

Post by Coeus » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:33 pm

danielj wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:16 am
...To mitigate though, there's an improved drafts facility (see your control panel) and get into the habit of using preview rather than post in the first instance....
I did preview the my previous post, thought I'd fixed the typos and thus submitted it, then discovered another and that is not the first time that has happened. I think the issue is that when you to proof-read what you have written you tend to read back what you had intended to write rather than what is actually there.

I also want to say thanks for moderating the forum. I having much fun here and learning too so please don't take anything I have said a whinge.

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Re: Post Edits

Post by Elminster » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:42 pm

Coeus wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:33 pm
danielj wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:16 am
...To mitigate though, there's an improved drafts facility (see your control panel) and get into the habit of using preview rather than post in the first instance....
I did preview the my previous post, thought I'd fixed the typos and thus submitted it, then discovered another and that is not the first time that has happened. I think the issue is that when you to proof-read what you have written you tend to read back what you had intended to write rather than what is actually there.
I think I mentioned in this thread, or might have been the other, I do the same. So I get the Mac (and assume windows does as well) read back what I wrote. And spell check with my ears. Not so much on forums, but on important ( :( ) stuff

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