Post editing

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lurkio
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Re: Post editing

Post by lurkio » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:38 pm

Richard Russell wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:34 pm
On the 'Last edited by' footers, showing a count of edits will discourage me from fixing minor typos. I share the view that a short 'grace period' during which edits can be made invisibly should be allowed, if the forum software is capable of that.
That might be a good compromise solution. But I get the impression that the admins aren't too keen on the idea even if it does turn out to be technically possible..?

:?:
Last edited by lurkio on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BigEd
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Re: Post editing

Post by BigEd » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:39 pm

I know it's a pain to tweak an installation (because it risks trouble at upgrade time) but making these 'edited 99 times' footers visible only to mods and admins might be a good story.

I thought I could filter them out using my brain, but my brain says it can't do it.

The really useful cases are these:
- someone makes an edit more than 10 mins after they posted - to add new information, or for nefarious reasons
- a mod made an edit for good mod reasons - in which case the mod can apply discipline and sign their changes manually

I'm not sure how to keep the first case working, unless by tweaking the php - might it "only" need the comparison of a timestamp difference against a threshold?

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danielj
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Re: Post editing

Post by danielj » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:48 pm

I can, I think, only make them visible to mods and admins - but other people do want to see them too as has been suggested in this thread. It's going to be impossible to please everyone on this one, and I don't think any of us are paid enough to work out a bespoke solution (I note it's already chewed up over an hour of my day searching to see if there's a way of changing things)!
Last edited by danielj on Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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1024MAK
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Re: Post editing

Post by 1024MAK » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:39 pm

lurkio wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:38 pm
Richard Russell wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:34 pm
On the 'Last edited by' footers, showing a count of edits will discourage me from fixing minor typos. I share the view that a short 'grace period' during which edits can be made invisibly should be allowed, if the forum software is capable of that.
That might be a good compromise solution. But I get the impression that the admins aren't too keen on the idea even if it does turn out to be technically possible..?

:?:
I'm certainly not against the idea.

From my point of view, I'm in too minds about the recent change.

If reading a thread where all the changes and edits have occurred before I opened the thread, it's mostly all extra clutter.

For my own posts, far too often I only spot an error after posting, or I think of something else to add. Then it does become annoying where my new post has the edited line details. The new autodraft /quick draft feature should help here.

It should be noted that although I do find it a bit annoying, on another forum, any edit at any time brings up a message at the bottom of the post in red text that reads "Post edited by 1024MAK on June 16" which is even more annoying. It's worse, some forums only allow editing for upto one or two hours. [There are no plans to do that here I'm glad to say.]

But the other side is, now it is visible that a post has been edited, when and by who. In my humble opinion, this transparency is a good thing. Members and users can see clearly when a post was last edited. Moderators and administrators can better understand any misuse of the forum. Normal members are better able to hold modulators to account if their own post gets edited. All wins as far as I'm concerned.

The team here, are always welcome to suggestions on how to improve the forum. If it was easy to change a setting, so that, say edits within the last 10 minutes of a post being posted did not cause the edited details line to show up to normal members, the team would have flipped the setting. But things are rarely that simple.

Mark

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BigEd
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Re: Post editing

Post by BigEd » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:47 pm

Generally, I like the idea of a grace period which allows quick early edits. I'd hope we could find a period which is long enough to work for everyone.

And generally I don't like late edits, because some people will miss the update. It's nice for a post to be correct, but not so nice if people see only the incorrect version.

One exception: head posts which are updated with progress on a project (or a meeting booking or a high score competition) where the head poster will both update the head and post a thread update to say it's been done.

It would not be good to lose the head post update capability.

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Re: Post editing

Post by BigEd » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:48 pm

As it's very rare that a post will be updated with nefarious intent, perhaps that's not the case to optimise for.

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danielj
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Re: Post editing

Post by danielj » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:49 pm

I should add - it's really not about being not too keen! I think the compromise would be perfect, but without modifying the forum code or writing/modifying a module (which I'm personally incapable of doing as I don't know PHP or anything about the deep inner workings of phpbb, and also don't have the time to commit to learning a new language and working it out) there's no way of making it happen.

Added to that, custom code makes forum upgrades problematic as they can no longer be done reasonably automatically, and when that happens it's vulnerable to hacking, and when that happens the forum goes down and posts get lost (you'll remember that happened in the past). Hence what might seem relatively trivial really isn't :(

d.

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Elminster
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Re: Post editing

Post by Elminster » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:27 pm

I am not too worried, will go with the flow. My spooling is por so expect me edict count to be hi.

But agree better editing at cost of security if doing customisation or strange third party modules would not be the way to go. In my onion.

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Re: Post editing

Post by danielj » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:57 pm

So, there's a poll there now! Please vote! :)

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1024MAK
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Re: Post editing

Post by 1024MAK » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:04 pm

Click this link to take you to the poll...

Mark

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ctr
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Re: Post editing

Post by ctr » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:26 pm

Edit: there's a safer method below.

You can hide these messages locally by adding

Code: Select all

.notice {display:none}
to your browser's user-defined css. In Firefox this is in the file: C:\Users\<user>\AppData\Roaming\Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\<profile>\chrome\userContent.css

You could use greasemonkey to do something more fancy comparing post dates to edit dates so only late edits were displayed.
Last edited by ctr on Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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danielj
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Re: Post editing

Post by danielj » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:32 pm

That's a top tip! - can the same be done in Chrome?

d.

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ctr
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Re: Post editing

Post by ctr » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:23 pm

danielj wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:32 pm
can the same be done in Chrome?
I don't use Chrome but a quick Google search suggests they removed the built-in feature. Apparently you can get add-ons for Chrome that let you do this.

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Re: Post editing

Post by guesser » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:57 pm

Unless there's some other code you're not posting which makes the css rule domain specific, adding things like that seem like a very bad idea to me. I would recommend using an element blocker like ublock origin for things like that.
A web based teletext editor which can export as Mode 7 screen memory: https://zxnet.co.uk/teletext/editor

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ctr
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Re: Post editing

Post by ctr » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:58 pm

guesser wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:57 pm
Unless there's some other code you're not posting which makes the css rule domain specific, adding things like that seem like a very bad idea to me. I would recommend using an element blocker like ublock origin for things like that.
I like living dangerously! But it's a fair point. Here's a ublock origin rule that only applies to stardot.

Code: Select all

! Hide "last edited" notice in stardot forums
stardot.org.uk##.notice
This will work in Firefox or Chrome.

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BigEd
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Re: Post editing

Post by BigEd » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:39 pm

So, if a simple CSS tweak can hide the edit notices, could this be an alternate 'theme'? And would that be "quite easy" to offer as an option?

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Re: Post editing

Post by Rich Talbot-Watkins » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:55 am

A good while back, I think the forum used to report all edits, and then this disappeared with one of the big upgrades. Since then, if I edit one of my own posts to add additional content or correct issues, I nearly always prefix it with 'Edit:' myself to make it clear that it's been added. I think the footer is a bit of visual clutter, but it's better to have it than not to have it. I couldn't care less if someone's edited their post a few times, and certainly won't judge them for it!

Also I think it's the norm to show that a post has been edited. In Facebook, if a post is edited, not only is it indicated, but anyone can even view the edit history.

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Elminster
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Re: Post editing

Post by Elminster » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:29 am

Rich Talbot-Watkins wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:55 am
... Since then, if I edit one of my own posts to add additional content or correct issues, I nearly always prefix it with 'Edit:' myself to make it clear that it's been added. I think the footer is a bit of visual clutter, but it's better to have it than not to have it. I couldn't care less if someone's edited their post a few times, and certainly won't judge them for it!

Also I think it's the norm to show that a post has been edited. In Facebook, if a post is edited, not only is it indicated, but anyone can even view the edit history.
I think that is exactly what I do, and my general outlook on life in general as well.

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Re: Post editing

Post by danielj » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:41 am

@Richard - having had a chat with a couple of people, this is my understanding too, and that the behaviour was lost after the hack and upgrade.

I'm quite happy to have a look at creating an alternative theme that doesn't show this information (that seems within the bounds of my abilities), but the forum software will be logging it, and people will be able to view it if they wish. Pretty much all the other forums I use flag when any post has been edited, and as mentioned above, facebook certainly does.

I know this seems like catering to edge cases, but edge cases are the things that chew up everyone's time...
(edit: along with small changes in the way the forum works ;))
Last edited by danielj on Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Post editing

Post by danielj » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:31 pm

I have had a look over lunch, it does seem fairly easy to make a forum theme based on the current one that omits the edited message footer unless someone puts something in the reason box. If this sounds like it would mitigate most concerns then I'll put that into play this evening - it will require you choosing a different theme in your user control panel.

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Re: Post editing

Post by BigEd » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:37 pm

Sounds good to me - thanks for looking into it!

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Re: Post editing

Post by Rich Talbot-Watkins » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:17 pm

danielj wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:31 pm
I have had a look over lunch, it does seem fairly easy to make a forum theme based on the current one that omits the edited message footer unless someone puts something in the reason box. If this sounds like it would mitigate most concerns then I'll put that into play this evening - it will require you choosing a different theme in your user control panel.
Probably won't address some people's concerns that they'd prefer small edits to be undisclosed if they happen before a reply is received, as was previously the case.

My personal preference would be to not disclose 'small' edits (where 'small' amounts to a 'few' changed characters) if there are no subsequent replies, so a post can be tidied up if typos/errors are spotted on a re-read. But I guess we all need to get used to proofreading in preview before submitting. As has been already said on here, once something's published on the internet, it can be read by the whole world if you catch it at the right moment. We may as well accept that edits will be disclosed, and try to get it as right as possible the first time.

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Re: Post editing

Post by danielj » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:34 pm

Rich Talbot-Watkins wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:17 pm
danielj wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:31 pm
I have had a look over lunch, it does seem fairly easy to make a forum theme based on the current one that omits the edited message footer unless someone puts something in the reason box. If this sounds like it would mitigate most concerns then I'll put that into play this evening - it will require you choosing a different theme in your user control panel.
Probably won't address some people's concerns that they'd prefer small edits to be undisclosed if they happen before a reply is received, as was previously the case.
Aye, alas we can't really square that circle :( but can attempt to mitigate it as far as possible for people that don't want to see it. There's just not the granularity there in the levers available.

Personally I'm going to use it as an impetus to use preview more.

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Re: Post editing

Post by BigEd » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:38 pm

If you made the default theme be the one which hides the edit notification, then most people won't see it (because most people don't change defaults) and perhaps that would then increase the comfort of those people who feel a chilling effect from having the edit count be visible.

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Re: Post editing

Post by danielj » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:54 pm

Then we'll get people complaining about there being a hidden setting that lets people view edit counts! (and that will be the complaint even if we put it in a sticky announcement).

edit: I realise this sounds slightly flippant, but these are the things we weigh up and toy with up every time we flip a setting somewhere... :D
Last edited by danielj on Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Post editing

Post by Rich Talbot-Watkins » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:49 pm

Another possibility is only allowing time-limited editing, apart from the first post of a topic, via this extension:

https://www.phpbb.com/customise/db/exte ... stpostedit

If you've already read a post, it's easy to miss any subsequent edits to it, so this doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. Also can prevent someone sabotaging their post history for whatever reason, and ruining the flow of a thread.

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Re: Post editing

Post by danielj » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:43 pm

That was mentioned earlier, but it's a bit of a no-goer really, we don't wish to get into telling people they can't change things. I just checked vcfed - that clocks up an edit no matter what, much as we do here. Let me stick in the new theme and see how it looks.

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Re: Post editing

Post by danielj » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:03 pm

OK - you can choose a theme, or style, in the UCP that only shows you the edit line when someone's entered a reason for their edit:
new-board-style.png

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Re: Post editing

Post by BigEd » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:06 pm

Thanks - works for me!

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Re: Post editing

Post by 1024MAK » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:02 pm

danielj wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:03 pm
OK - you can choose a theme, or style, in the UCP that only shows you the edit line when someone's entered a reason for their edit:
new-board-style.png
Just so you are all aware, only moderators and administrators get the box where a reason can be entered when editing a post.

So my recommendation is for members to add a line similar to this at the bottom of their post:
Edited due to <reason>
You can of course expand on this if you wish.

However, if deleting the last post in a thread, all members should be able to enter a reason. It is helpful if at least a brief reason is given, as it shows up in the moderators list.

Mark

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