Bounties

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JonC
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Bounties

Post by JonC » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:21 pm

Not sure if this has been discussed before here, so if so my apologies.

There are a lot of greate developments going on at the moment by a few people, and to support them (as I do not have the skillsets myself), I think it could help productivity to be able to contribute a bit of cash for their efforts (even if it's just a bit of beer money :lol: ).

Equally, if there's interest, people should be able to propose bounties for hardware and software developments that are missing, or would be useful to help keep our beloved hardware and software up, running and upgrading into the future.

Thoughts? :D
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Elminster
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Re: Bounties

Post by Elminster » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:24 pm

Have a deja vu feeling, might have been discussed before. Simoni certainly has a donate option. I think often the issue is time as much as hard cash.

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Re: Bounties

Post by danielj » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:36 pm

:D - I can only really speak for myself - time's the killer and consequently, for me, as soon as someone puts money to something the pressure mounts, and it stops being fun :(

That's certainly in the "development" space.

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Re: Bounties

Post by davidb » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:51 pm

I think that a way to reward people for having made/done something would be nice, otherwise it seems like we're only looking forward to the next new thing and taking existing things for granted. And there's nothing stopping people from buying the software and hardware that forum regulars are making available, though I know that this only addresses part of the equation of how these things get made. :)

A related issue is compensating people who put their own money towards things that end up "in the commons", such as missing software titles and hardware that need rescuing from auction sites, but I think there's already a fund for this.

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Re: Bounties

Post by Pernod » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:32 pm

Over at MAME we recently had someone post a bounty at https://www.bountysource.com/. The bounty was linked to a github issue, and when someone fixed it they claimed the bounty, which was then donated to the Dumping Union to buy/dump more boards/ROMs. It was $60 for maybe an hours effort.

I feel that when money is involved there is a greater expectation to get things done. For many of us this is a hobby that we do in our spare time, without any pressure or expectation. The reward is knowing that like minded people enjoy and appreciate our efforts of developing software and hardware to be shared around the community. Personally, and am sure others would agree, I work on tasks that interest me, it may may not ever get finished and wouldn't want a bounty demanding anything. The enjoyment would be taken away and would feel more like a job, not well paid.

Having said that, a few years ago I used to develop/maintain an open source media server package in PHP/MySQL. For this I had a donation option on the site which did motivate me to continue support. On a really good year of adding features I received almost £500, but was more often around £100/year. Not enough to make a difference, but did pay for a Synology NAS. As I lost interest in the project and development dwindled so did the donations, fair enough.

I think some kind of donation option may be appreciated by some, even if it is just beer money each month. Then the problem is who maintains/distributes the contributions? Who's time is worth more than others? Could get complicated very quickly.
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tricky
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Re: Bounties

Post by tricky » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:55 pm

Personally, time is my most precious commodity, but I would write my games whether anyone said thanks or not :)
I did write quite a bit, but don't want to assume, so I have deleted it.

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Re: Bounties

Post by JonC » Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:53 pm

The idea I had was to promote the most wanted things by listing them and letting people bid on them.
That way if people really want them, the 'reward' price will go up and up. If money is a motivator for someone, then they claim it.

At the end of the day if time is a commodity you don't have (I know that feeling!), then don't claim the bounty?
I may be being a bit over simplistic here.

I'm very contious that the 8 bit guys can get their hardware out more easily because it's usually simpler to build and the software is easier to create.
There are a ton of great things that could be done with the Archies, but few want to takle creating the RISCOS code that would be needed (across multiple varients), to support new design hardware.

As I said just an idea.
Last edited by JonC on Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bounties

Post by davidb » Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:31 pm

JonC wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:53 pm
There are a ton of great things that could be done with the Archies, but few want to takle creating the RISCOS code that would be needed (across multiple varients), to support new design hardware.
I would suggest talking to the RISC OS Open people about using their bounty system. However, I think it's really aimed at doing things with the latest RISC OS source code, so they might not want to (or be able to) open it up to projects that are based around older releases of RISC OS.

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Re: Bounties

Post by daveejhitchins » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:40 am

The reward I like best is when someone really enjoys something I've made - Priceless =D>

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Re: Bounties

Post by JonC » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:21 pm

If the prevailing sentiment is that this isn't wanted/needed, that's fine. Just think a trick is being missed here and there may be some missed opportunities.

edited for typos
Last edited by JonC on Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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matt_nottm
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Re: Bounties

Post by matt_nottm » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:00 pm

I don't know how we would make it work, but I'd be happy to invest some newer Econet/Ethernet/RiscOS hardware.

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Re: Bounties

Post by 1024MAK » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:07 pm

Okay, now that most have had their say,...

I’m sure that this has indeed come up in the past. I think that as well as the idea of having a fund to help to buy rare/hard to get original software, the idea was also floated to assist in new developments (both hardware and software), and that one possible possible source of funds would be unused money from events, such as the ABUG meet-ups.

For the exact details, you would have to search through the old threads.

IMHO, if/when there is some money available, this would mainly be used to buy expensive components during the prototyping stages. As this is when it is often the most needed. And of course, it should be made clear that you would not be any obligation to put yourself under any pressure if you did accept this help. The only obligation would be that you either make the results and files public, or provide them to StarDot. The idea being that if other members wanted to continue the work, they could build on the work done by you or others.

Obviously a lot of developers either don’t need help with funding, or may prefer not to ask. Which is of course absolutely fine.

If the issue is lack of time, or the issue is hitting a brick wall/getting stuck, then contribution money is not much help. Asking for help on the forum may sometimes result in members helping. But there may be a bit of a wait if the subject is specialised.

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Elminster
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Re: Bounties

Post by Elminster » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:36 pm

Fpga and only be able to buy parts in bulk is usually the only expensive bit.

Tools are expensive but most people embarking on these sorts of things already have them. Unless wanting to go into mass production with a reflow oven or something. Along similar lines pcbs are cheap these days Unless doing a large 4 layer board.

There appear to be 3 ways to approach:
  • Pay up front for development
    Bounty on completion
    A donation that isn’t tied to anything in particular
The the only issue is to creat3 a stasis bubble to get around the time issue.

Edit: had a quick look for previous thread but couldn’t see it.
Last edited by Elminster on Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bounties

Post by Prime » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:57 pm

Personally speaking I'd not want to participate.

I felt bad enough when I had to can the Atom Colour board because I couldn't get it to work reliably, I felt I was letting a load of people that where wanting one down, and it caused me a lot of internal stress accepting money for the development would have made this 10x worse. I am however quite willing to share things that I have worked on, if they are not currently publicly posted just ask :) If other people want to take them and improve them then feel free.

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Re: Bounties

Post by BigEd » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:06 pm

Not everyone will know this from their experience, but it's well worth trying to understand it: we all know about being short of time, or money, but being short of energy or motivation is even more important. That's something we can get from this forum and from meetups and from collaborations: a sense of support, and shared goals, and understanding. Especially when things are going wrong, or stalled, or seem to make no sense. I believe it's good to thank people, to show interest, to congratulate or commiserate. It's good to share, and to cooperate. And we need to be really careful about criticism.

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Re: Bounties

Post by Prime » Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:10 pm

Criticism is fine as long as it's constructive.

"Your XYZ interface is SH1T!" : Not constructive.

"It's a shame your XYZ interface didn'd do function ABC",
"I wish your XYZ did function ABC in a different way as I don't find the current way logical / intuitive" : constructive.

Personally I'm more critical of my own projects than I am of other peoples....

And Yeah the forums and meetups are good places to work / shake down bugs etc / discuss ideas.....which is why I try and make it to most of them whenever possible (not just the Acorn ones either).

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Re: Bounties

Post by Arcadian » Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:28 pm

1024MAK wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:07 pm
Okay, now that most have had their say,...

I’m sure that this has indeed come up in the past. I think that as well as the idea of having a fund to help to buy rare/hard to get original software, the idea was also floated to assist in new developments (both hardware and software), and that one possible possible source of funds would be unused money from events, such as the ABUG meet-ups.

Just for the record I'm still sitting on the surplus from the November 2017 and January 2018 ABug Meetups (£120+£90 respectively IIRC, though I'd need to check my records to be 100%). Happy to forward the cash to other ABug organisers to go towards future meetups - or to other cause(s) deemed appropriate by ABug members if not required for events.

Edit: Almost forgot, the £120 from Leicester was going to be used for 2 x ABug and 2 x StarDot roller banners, which were going to be based on artwork John Blythe created (which I must dig out!!).
Last edited by Arcadian on Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JonC
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Re: Bounties

Post by JonC » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:33 pm

matt_nottm wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:00 pm
I don't know how we would make it work, but I'd be happy to invest some newer Econet/Ethernet/RiscOS hardware.
Same here.

Maybe a central donations pot (or the ABug pot) would be the right way to go? Set up a 'Donate' paypal account, and then we could have votes on how those funds are spent. Even get some outside development if there isn't the time or skill to do certain things.

This would allow the hobbiests among us to continue as they are, and those who wanted something to pay to do so and direct the funds at other less accessible (but needed) projects.
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Re: Bounties

Post by richardtoohey » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:35 am

I've not got much time these days, nor (m)any ideas, and certainly haven't contributed much in the way of code, so it's good for sad people like me to be able to contribute something (money!) if it can be worked out. I've chipped in in the past for getting stuff off eBay so that sort of thing seems to have worked.

But definitely don't want to stress out the contributors/makers/hackers.

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Re: Bounties

Post by sydney » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:08 am

I'm not sure bounties will make much difference to the acorn community. Projects here tend to arise through the interest of one person to create a particular thing and without that interest I'm not sure that a cash reward will make any difference. In my opinion the only way bounties would work would be for bounty to be large enough for someone outside the community to do it.

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danielj
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Re: Bounties

Post by danielj » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:56 am

If you got someone to consult on a project you wanted done, you're talking thousands.

Save your pennies and buy things when people offer them for sale :) that's the biggest motivator.

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