ICE T65/Z80/6809

discussion of games, software, hardware & emulators relating to the Acorn Atom
Prime
Posts: 2495
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 11:52 pm
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Prime » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:29 am

I'd initially thought about making an adapter board bu eventually opted to remove the female headers and replace with top mounted male ones + dil40 on bottom. Though it was a reasonable amount of work :( and took ages to clear the solder out of the holes to fit the new top mounted pins.

Cheers.

Phill.

User avatar
BigEd
Posts: 1825
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:24 am
Location: West
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by BigEd » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:40 am

[Oops, I see now I missed an existing reply!]

I'm only guessing, but I'd say the bare board version is perhaps still being made, whereas the 2x50-pin version you got is end-of-life. There is, however, quite a bit of stock left.

Adding a surface mount 40pin header to the bare board is probably the easiest way forward, in general, but an adapter board for the 2x50 would also work. And then, hacking off the 2x50 sockets and then soldering the 40pin header is another option. Desoldering them intact could be tricky, but attacking them with sidecutters and then removing the 100 pins one by one should be easier. It would of course be a pity if the board was damaged in the process.

Prime
Posts: 2495
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 11:52 pm
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Prime » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:33 am

BigEd wrote:[Oops, I see now I missed an existing reply!]
And then, hacking off the 2x50 sockets and then soldering the 40pin header is another option. Desoldering them intact could be tricky, but attacking them with sidecutters and then removing the 100 pins one by one should be easier. It would of course be a pity if the board was damaged in the process.
What I managed to do was leaver off the plastic surround, leaving the pins still soldered in, then removed the pins and cleaned the holes. I didn't have a surface mount DIL socket so I took a turned pin 40 pin socket and bent the pins outward on each side to about 45 degrees, this was enough to solder them to the pads on the board, it's actually quite strong even with them just resting together before soldering. Into this I plugged some double ended headers and then finally another turned pin DIL on the bottom. I did this because it's what I had at hand and didn't have time to order a proper header before heading off to ABUG where I wanted to use it for some Apple debugging :)

May well do my other one at some point.

Cheers.

Phill.

User avatar
BigEd
Posts: 1825
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:24 am
Location: West
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by BigEd » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:50 am

A photo of your contraption - ahem, wonderful creation - would be nice!

joeyoravec
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:47 am
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by joeyoravec » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:11 pm

My work-in-progress adapter design has 2x25 headers to plug into the GODIL50, and a second set of 2x25 headers (outside the GODIL outline) to provide the jumpering capability. Also a header to connect an FTDI usb-to-ethernet header. Also pads on the bottom to solder the 40-pin surface mount component.

Thoughts? I considered an alternate approach to keep the original outline, but then I was unable to fit jumpers and I would need to "hardwire" the PCB for a specific processor type.
baa72f65-dd72-4c71-9b67-7cf4867c8986View.png

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 7117
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:45 pm

joeyoravec wrote: Thoughts? I considered an alternate approach to keep the original outline, but then I was unable to fit jumpers and I would need to "hardwire" the PCB for a specific processor type.
I would suggest you contact Trenz and ask them what they expect the availability to be like in the future. They are usually very responsive. I don't think it's worth designing a new adapter for a board that may soon be unavailable.

If you look at the last couple of pages of this thread, you'll see there is an alternative board (a cheap LX9 board off eBay). This has a much larger foot-print than the GODIL, so may not be suitable for all applications.

If it were me, I would buy one of the GODIL bare modules and a Preci DIP header.

What processor architecture are you targeting?

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

joeyoravec
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:47 am
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by joeyoravec » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:36 pm

Unfortunately language was a barrier. I'm going to try again -- but I haven't been able to get a forecast about the product line, only a response about the specific variant:
Please understand that we can't give a suggestion about an availability in the future. All we can say at the moment is, we will take the GODIL40_XC3S250E back into our shop if we will receive it again. Sorry that the information we can give is not more concrete.
If I continue down this road, then I'm thinking about changing from preci-dip to a male machine pin. Thoughts? I was thinking that a round machine pin might be less damaging to an antique CPU socket than a square pin on 0.100" header.

Targeting 6809E. I typically debug with a Fluke 9010 but the adapter pod for 6809 is unobtainable. I'm hoping this is a workable solution.

Your comment made me think -- Trenz has some newer FPGA boards with a very small outline. If any of them have 5v tolerant I/Os then it might be more productive for me to construct an adapter for a newer generation of chip. Yes, the mechanicals and form factor are really the concern for me. The GODIL is a very robust, elegant solution.

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 7117
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:03 pm

joeyoravec wrote: If I continue down this road, then I'm thinking about changing from preci-dip to a male machine pin. Thoughts? I was thinking that a round machine pin might be less damaging to an antique CPU socket than a square pin on 0.100" header.
The Preci DIP headers have 0.47mm diameter round pins. Is your round machine pin less that this?

The original 6809 plastic DIP package lead thickness is 0.20-0.38 mm, so the Preci DIP might cause some socket spreading with non-turned-pin sockets.
joeyoravec wrote: Your comment made me think -- Trenz has some newer FPGA boards with a very small outline. If any of them have 5v tolerant I/Os then it might be more productive for me to construct an adapter for a newer generation of chip. Yes, the mechanicals and form factor are really the concern for me. The GODIL is a very robust, elegant solution.
I'm not aware of any that:
- have 5V tolerant I/O, and
- allow the power supply pins to be configured to an combination of the 40 pins.

If you find anything, do let is know.

Dave

joeyoravec
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:47 am
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by joeyoravec » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:19 pm

Got another cautious response from Trenz, which is ok. It's what I expected:
actual you should see some more produces of OHO.
I can't forecast the availability, if our stock is sold out I can't say when we could get new goods.
I am sorry that I can't give a better or more concrete information.
Yes -- you're totally right about the preci-dip. My mistake. I think it'll work well enough.

Regarding the "allow power supply pins be configured to any combination of the 40 pins", I think it's possible to plug a module into an adapter PCB and handle the jumpering use-case on the adapter board with similar 2x25 headers. It would be a little larger mechanically but could be an elegant solution.

vorosmokus
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:28 am
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by vorosmokus » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:13 am

What would be the chance that the ICE-T discussion be broken out into a new forum?

For example "General hardware hacking" section with a sub-forum of "ICE-T". (eg. Board Index < General Hardware Hacking < ICE-T )

I'm asking because I have some questions relating to the ICE-T that don't fit the current scope and I've seen other forums around the net talking about this great project and would be good to concentrate the talk here rather than it drift off onto other forums and within PMs.

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 7117
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:22 am

vorosmokus wrote: What would be the chance that the ICE-T discussion be broken out into a new forum?

For example "General hardware hacking" section with a sub-forum of "ICE-T". (eg. Board Index < General Hardware Hacking < ICE-T )

I'm asking because I have some questions relating to the ICE-T that don't fit the current scope and I've seen other forums around the net talking about this great project and would be good to concentrate the talk here rather than it drift off onto other forums and within PMs.
The forum structure here has been pretty static for as long as I can remember.

I think in this case you should just start a new thread.

Out of interest, can you provide links to some of the other discussions?

BTW, I always try to steer conversations away from PMs and back onto the open forum.

Dave

vorosmokus
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:28 am
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by vorosmokus » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:44 pm

hoglet wrote: I think in this case you should just start a new thread.
OK, not sure how relevant trying to add support for the RCA CDP1802 CPU is to the Acorn Atom though :-)
hoglet wrote: Out of interest, can you provide links to some of the other discussions?
I seem to remember seeing something on the 6502.org forum and also on an Apple I or Apple II forum.
hoglet wrote: BTW, I always try to steer conversations away from PMs and back onto the open forum.
Yes, I'm a fan of this too, but there are many disparate topics within this (currently) 21 page/611 post thread so I thought it may be prudent to suggest a more relevant home for the related discussions, and it would only drive additional members here anyhow.

It is no problem, I can discuss my side privately with my friends who are interested in it (but who are not Acorn users like myself) and report back sporadically.

Cheers

Phil.

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 7117
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:00 pm

vorosmokus wrote:
hoglet wrote: I think in this case you should just start a new thread.
OK, not sure how relevant trying to add support for the RCA CDP1802 CPU is to the Acorn Atom though :-)
Start it in the 8-bit hardware forum:
http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewforum.php?f=3

Are you basing it on this?

Maybe a moderator could also move this thead there as well, as it's clearly now not Acorn Atom specific either!

Dave

vorosmokus
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:28 am
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by vorosmokus » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:19 pm

hoglet wrote: Start it in the 8-bit hardware forum:
Yes, the "general hardware hacking" thing was an example to illustrate the point, it is the name of a section in another board I used to frequent.
In this case it would have been "8-bit -> Ice-T" but I guess the 8-bit hardware forum works.
hoglet wrote: Are you basing it on this?
I have looked at that, but have been playing with this one because I didn't get my level converter hardware until yesterday, I have a MachXO2 Pico board and it is VHDL.

User avatar
BigEd
Posts: 1825
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:24 am
Location: West
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by BigEd » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:59 pm

joeyoravec wrote:I haven't been able to get a forecast about the product line, only a response about the specific variant:
Please understand that we can't give a suggestion about an availability in the future. All we can say at the moment is, we will take the GODIL40_XC3S250E back into our shop if we will receive it again. Sorry that the information we can give is not more concrete.
...
The GODIL is a very robust, elegant solution.
The GODIL is made by OHO, and sold by Trenz. I pinged OHO, and they said if there's demand, they will make parts. But they have had production problems this year. They also said only the larger 500 series of FPGA are stocked. So, my reading is that there mightn't be many more 250-sized GODILs, but there's a good chance there will be more 500-sized ones.

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 7117
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:03 pm

Trenz's stock of the bare modules has gone from 30 (Thursday 7th) to 25 (today, Sunday 10th).

So someone is buying them!

bprosman
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:27 pm
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by bprosman » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:05 am

Got my 2nd EEPizza board in and it came with a straight single header row like the 1st one.

Prime
Posts: 2495
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 11:52 pm
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Prime » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:12 am

bprosman wrote:Got my 2nd EEPizza board in and it came with a straight single header row like the 1st one.
For the JTAG? Yeah mine arrived the other day and is like that too. May welldesolder and replace with right angle ones.

Cheers.

Phill.

bprosman
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:27 pm
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by bprosman » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:50 pm

May welldesolder and replace with right angle ones.
Too bad the straight ones are out of pitch , so yes you more or less have to.

joeyoravec
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:47 am
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by joeyoravec » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:05 pm

I got my adapter PCB back today -- supports the GODIL with female headers, and has configuration jumpers on the side (at expense of a little extra width):
IMG_4943.JPG

Budgie
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:14 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Budgie » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:34 pm

Hi Dave

I’ve just been playing around with the GODIL in an Electron. I just used the T65 core (same version you have in ICE T65) with some additions you created to create the correct timings for writes to the data bus and also clocks Phi1 and Phi2.

i.e.

Data <= Dout when Phi0_c = '1' and R_W_n_int = '0' else (others => 'Z');

clk_gen : process(clock49)
begin
if rising_edge(clock49) then
Phi0_a <= Phi0;
Phi0_b <= Phi0_a;
Phi0_c <= Phi0_b;
Phi0_d <= Phi0_c;
end if;
end process;

Phi1 <= not (Phi0_b or Phi0_d);
Phi2 <= Phi0_b and Phi0_d;
cpu_clk <= not Phi0_d;


Everything worked fine until I tried accessing devices plugged into the Plus 1 I.e. Myelins ROM and programs off an SD using MMFS.

So I immediately thought I’ve made a mistake somewhere and therefore tried your full ICE T65 on the GODIL. Again this worked fine until I accessed anything from the plus 1.

I suspected this was a timing issue in terms of accessing the bus so changed

Data <= Dout when Phi0_c = '1' and R_W_n_int = '0' else (others => 'Z');

To

Data <= Dout when Phi0_b = '1' and R_W_n_int = '0' else (others => 'Z');


This improved things i.e. doing a *ROMS displayed the roms in Myelins Flash/ROM board but accessing data from the SD card just hangs. Removing the card shows Card ? as expected.

I’m wondering whether the timing on my Electron might need tweaking even more ? Does yours work ok when accessing from the Plus 1. Mine is an issue 6 board.


Thanks

Andy

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 7117
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:53 am

Budgie wrote: I’m wondering whether the timing on my Electron might need tweaking even more ? Does yours work ok when accessing from the Plus 1. Mine is an issue 6 board.
I don't think I have ever tried this with a Plus One. Anyway, I've just tried now, and to be honest it's quite flaky, even without a Plus One. And it's more flaky with an issue 6 than an issue 4.

I tried a few things, and changing this:

Code: Select all

    data_latch : process(Phi0_b)
    begin
        if falling_edge(Phi0_b) then
            if (fakeTube_n = '0' and Addr_int = x"FEE0") then
                Din        <= x"FE";
            else
                Din        <= Data;
            end if;
        end if;
    end process;
to this:

Code: Select all

    data_latch : process(Phi0_a)
    begin
        if falling_edge(Phi0_a) then
            if (fakeTube_n = '0' and Addr_int = x"FEE0") then
                Din        <= x"FE";
            else
                Din        <= Data;
            end if;
        end if;
    end process;
seemed to make a positive difference.

Phill also found this change really helped with an Apple II.

It's a bit hard to test this, because I'm finding as the system warms up it becomes stable anyway (and both of the above seem to work fine).

Anyway, based on Phill's experience and my small amount of testing this morning I've just pushed that change:
https://github.com/hoglet67/AtomBusMon/ ... 6b8935ad8d

Dave

Budgie
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:14 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/680

Post by Budgie » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Crazy as it may seem I’ve not actually included that read code so im not reading on a clock edge. Should have at least added that but skipped it completely thinking its only second processor related.

I will add that and perform some further testing and let you know the results

Thanks for the info

Andy

Budgie
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:14 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Budgie » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:08 pm

Thanks. Its more stable with that change but still doesn't read from the SD card but neither does a UM6502CE

Andy

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 7117
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:16 pm

Budgie wrote: Thanks. Its more stable with that change but still doesn't read from the SD card but neither does a UM6502CE
How exactly is the SD card being interfaced to the Elk?

Budgie
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:14 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Budgie » Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:01 am

It’s MartinBs User/ROM/RAM board with one of those cheap SD modules plugged into the User port.

I’ll have to take a picture

Thanks

Andy

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 7117
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:30 am

Budgie wrote:It’s MartinBs User/ROM/RAM board with one of those cheap SD modules plugged into the User port.
I also have one of these and have had some issues with the SD side of it.

See this thread here:
http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewto ... 45#p165745

It could be that the slightly different timing with the ICE T65 is making this problem worse.

The AP5 uses a different design of 1MHz clock regeneration that is not prone to glitches.

It's also possible to bypass the clock regeneration circuitry on the EUP, which in my case also resolved the issue:
- isolate the 6522 pins 24 and 25 from the socket by bending the pins out
- connect Phi0 from IC5B pin 6 to 6522 pin 25
- connect 6522 pin 24 (CS2) to +5V

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Budgie
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:14 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Budgie » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:36 am

Thanks Dave :D

I’ll give that a try. This is my board
Attachments
3FF6BC28-927E-44BA-B0C0-8856E7FBEF8D.jpeg

Prime
Posts: 2495
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 11:52 pm
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Prime » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:05 pm

Hi,

Can anyone tell me how to disable the Tube emulation on the Spartan 6 mini board please as I can't find it in the docs. (I could comment it out and recompile but it looks like there should be a pin that needs to be pulled up / down to configure just not sure which).

Cheers.

Phill.

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 7117
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:12 pm

Prime wrote: Can anyone tell me how to disable the Tube emulation on the Spartan 6 mini board please as I can't find it in the docs. (I could comment it out and recompile but it looks like there should be a pin that needs to be pulled up / down to configure just not sure which).
According to the .ucf file, the fakeTube_n connects to pin 123 on the FPGA.

Code: Select all

NET "fakeTube_n" LOC="P123" | IOSTANDARD = LVCMOS33 ;

The connections on the FPGA board are numbered, so you should be able to find this input.

What I'm not sure about is where that goes to (if anywhere) on Jason's level shifter board. I suspect it's not connected, but I'm not sure because I haven't see a schematic.

Maybe try pulling the input labelled 123 up to 3.3V with a 1K pullup?

Dave

Post Reply