ICE T65/Z80/6809

discussion of games, software, hardware & emulators relating to the Acorn Atom and Acorn System machines.
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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Elminster » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:10 am

roland wrote:
Elminster wrote:Also where does that leave anyone want to do a run of Roland's ATOM boards which use the GODIL, I will perhaps dig the thread for that up later and post the question on there.
It might be a nice idea to have a replacement for the GODIL. Just imagine that you destroy the GODIL in the Atom :shock:
Would be good if they were both the same device or board. That way I could buy 3 the same. 1 for ICET, 1 for potential ATOMRoland I may build and 1 left to play with FGPAs/spare

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:18 am

I'd love to find a way to move forward with a "next generation" ICE-T

The GODIL was an attractive target for several reasons:
- it was available off the shelf
- it wasn't prohibitively expensive
- it has a very small physical size, so would fit in almost any system
- it had very flexible power pin configuration, so could emulate the 6502, Z80 and 6809 just by changing the jumpers.

I'm not aware of anything else that has these characteristics.

As Charlie says, the disadvantage was the type of level shifter used needed strong pullups which made it incompatible with some systems.

I know Jason has a new FPGA board at the design stage. Hopefully he'll be along at some point to give an update. It looked very interesting indeed!

Here's a link to his existing adapter board:
http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewto ... 04#p129004

Dave

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Elminster » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:44 pm

The board Jason has done looks pretty simple, shame it has two multi pin SMDs on it, that is a bit beyond my soldering skills I should think (I might be able to but I would more likely mess them up). Jason obviously designed for people with soldering skils like himself, I dont know if there is a way to design a non SMD version, if not then I guess get someone to do it for me or I will have to learn. I know it involves paste and masks and stuff, but lots of hassle if building just one of them.

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1024MAK
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by 1024MAK » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:01 pm

Or solder dragging with a normal iron...

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Elminster » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:05 pm

1024MAK wrote:Or solder dragging with a normal iron...
That to.
(Was so tempting to to say I only do dragging at the weekend, and never with soldiers, but I have resisted)

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1024MAK
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by 1024MAK » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:20 pm

Elminster wrote:
1024MAK wrote:Or solder dragging with a normal iron...
That to.
(Was so tempting to to say I only do dragging at the weekend, and never with soldiers, but I have resisted)
Well, it only works well with good etch resist and a good solder mask :shock:

Resistance is futile...!

Mark

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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Prime » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:47 pm

I've found that the flood and wick method works for me :

1) Flux the pads
2) Line up the chip to the pads, magnification helps here unless you have bionic eyes.....
3) Tack opposite corners of the chip,and check alignment again (with microscope) this way you can adjust position if needed.
4) flood with solder along each side, don't worry about the solder flowing between pins.
5) Go round the chip with solder wick, this will "suck" the excess solder from between the pins, but leave them soldered to pads.
6) Final check with microscope.

I do have a good binocular microscope which is good for checking but previously used a head loupe with a 3.5x lens, which can be had a little cheaper.

Soldering Iron is the Hakko FX-888D.

I've done packages up to 100 pin with 0.5mm pitch** with this, and sucessfully used it on self etched boards.

** e.g. the XC95144XL-pq100 on the DragonMMC board.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Elminster » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:53 am

BigEd wrote:Thinking about converting the 50pin GODIL, I think hacking off the sockets is the easiest way. Then, there's the question of finding a surface mount/solder tail 40 pin DIL header. Only one I found in stock is £5.

Sounds like hard work for a possibly botchy solution.

I have taken a chance and ordered the one that Jason built a header for. i.e. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Xilinx-FPGA-S ... 1438.l2649

I wanted an FGPA to play with anyway so no biggy if ICE T doesnt go in that direction.

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:23 am

Elminster wrote: I have taken a chance and ordered the one that Jason built a header for. i.e. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Xilinx-FPGA-S ... 1438.l2649
Do you have a Xilinx programming cable?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Xilinx-Platfo ... 1540354531

Dave

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Elminster » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:36 pm

Yes I ordered one at the same time. And a 16ch Spartan based Logic Analyser as well, in case I don tget an ICE T anytime soon.

With the fake Saleae 8ch I already have and my 2 ch Rigol OS I can pretty much sort of monitor everything.

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sirmorris
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by sirmorris » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:17 pm

I wouldn't recommend this as a first try at SMD soldering. It's a brace of super fine pitch devices and a metric shtonne of tiny passives. I'm more than happy to solder the fella up for you if you ship me the bits. I need to prod Jason for some more info about what to solder where as well.

It would be good to team up on getting this working - I have a portion of the knowledge required but I'm not confident and so tend to put this to one side. Having someone else heading in the same direction would be a great encouragement.

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:38 pm

sirmorris wrote: It would be good to team up on getting this working - I have a portion of the knowledge required but I'm not confident and so tend to put this to one side. Having someone else heading in the same direction would be a great encouragement.
Sounds like I need to order that FPGA board as well. :D

Charlie, do you already have one of the LX9 Core Boards? Which ebay vendor did you order your's from?

Dave

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Elminster » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:55 pm

sirmorris wrote:I wouldn't recommend this as a first try at SMD soldering. It's a brace of super fine pitch devices and a metric shtonne of tiny passives. I'm more than happy to solder the fella up for you if you ship me the bits. I need to prod Jason for some more info about what to solder where as well.

It would be good to team up on getting this working - I have a portion of the knowledge required but I'm not confident and so tend to put this to one side. Having someone else heading in the same direction would be a great encouragement.
I have no information on even what parts are required, let along having the parts. All I have is a picure. I just ordered the FGPA board and the programmer, the making something to connect it all to a 6502 DIP40 I dont have. So would need input from Jason, unless someone wants to reinvent the wheel.

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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by sirmorris » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:17 pm

I do indeed, this is the fella:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Xilinx-FPGA-Spa ... 1640406811

I need to speak to Jason so I could ask about the availability of the interface boards while I'm at it. I know he had a good few fabb'd and I can't imagine he's used more than a couple of them. I can see about making a couple up and pass them on at cost if that would help. I want a Z80 version too, so I could do with another.

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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:22 pm

sirmorris wrote:I do indeed, this is the fella:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Xilinx-FPGA-Spa ... 1640406811
Thanks, I''ve used him before. There will now be a short delay... :D
Your order was placed.
Estimated delivery: Wed., Aug. 02–Tue., Aug. 29
We'll send you an email confirmation soon.
Dave

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Elminster » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:17 pm

Same person I ordered from except I did from .co.uk rather than .com, hence different link.

So if enough clearance I am hoping board and interface could also be used on Roland's Atom pcb? Two birds with one hybrid board if you will.

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1024MAK
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by 1024MAK » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:25 pm

If there is a suitable and practical new arrangement, I would be interested.

I have visited Trenz's web site looking for GODILs many times over the last few years. Every time, the 40 pin DIL type has been shown as out of stock :(

So a new solution would be gratefully received [-o<

Mark

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Elminster » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:04 pm

Well that is 4 interested in ice t, and if it could fit in Roland's board I should think would be more interest. So sounds like demand for a small run of 10 or so boards is on the cards.

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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by flynnjs » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:54 am

I knew the adapter board was a pre-emptive strike but I didn't know what the latency would be :mrgreen:

I have about 15 more PCBs left from the initial batch. I dont think I have any of the level shifters out there.
What I really need is a source of the right-angle pin header as is used on the underside of the GODIL as
what I have as the moment is a bodge.

I do have a wrapper which is compatible with the Lx9 mini board. Please also remember that the pinout
is the same the DE0-nano so if you have one of those you could use that instead of ordering a mini board.
I have had Dave's ICE code working on that too but it requires the Altera toolchain and a different
programmer. :twisted:

@Charlie one side of the board you have just pull ups and the other side you leave unpopulated except
where you want to connect a pin to 5v or 0v. Of course you could just replace one of the pullups with
0r but that makes it a pain to swap between say 6502 and z80 etc.

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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by danielj » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:10 am

Putting one of these together is on my list too, so you can add another interested party to the list :) (I'm happy soldering any old crud)

d.

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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by BigEd » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:13 am

flynnjs wrote:What I really need is a source of the right-angle pin header as is used on the underside of the GODIL as what I have as the moment is a bodge.
Here's some at Avnet, €2.39 each, min quantity 10.
Same part at Digikey is £4.70 min quantity 1.

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1024MAK
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:14 am

flynnjs wrote:@Charlie one side of the board you have just pull ups and the other side you leave unpopulated except
where you want to connect a pin to 5v or 0v. Of course you could just replace one of the pullups with
0r but that makes it a pain to swap between say 6502 and z80 etc.
0r :?:
Or do you mean 0V ?

Mark

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1024MAK
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:36 am

‪‪So if I am reading this right, the following members are currently interested in one of Jason's adaptor boards:‪
  • Duncan (Elminster)
  • ‪Dave (hoglet)‪
  • ‪Charlie (sirmorris)‪
  • Mark (1024MAK)‪
  • Daniel (‪danielj)‬
‪(If I have misread your chat, bung me an PM :P )‪

Mark

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Elminster » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:36 am

Sounds about right. I will probably take 2 if it will fit in the 2015 ATOM remake, along as I dont have an 2015 Atom PCB and one would neeed o manufactured then I guess we could perhaps tweak the pcb layout to make it fit.

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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by oss003 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:58 am

Hi guys,

I found this on the internet:

http://pin4.at/pro_misc.php
https://www.enterpoint.co.uk/products/o ... aignell-1/
https://www.enterpoint.co.uk/products/o ... aignell-2/

But they are expensive, Craignell1 - 72 GBP, Craignell2 - 120 GBP.

Greetings
Kees

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hoglet
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:11 am

Hi Kees,
This seems quite old - the manual is dated 2013. It uses a Spartan XC2S100 FPGA which I think is too small for ICE T65.

It does have very flexible power supply jumpering.
These I think have fixed power supply pins (pin 20 = GND, pin 40 = VCC) so would not be compatible with a 6502 pinout.

I have looked quite hard for an alternative to the GODIL and not found one yet.

Dave

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flynnjs
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by flynnjs » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:48 am

@Mark I meant zero Ohm.

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1024MAK
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by 1024MAK » Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:33 am

flynnjs wrote:@Mark I meant zero Ohm.
Ahh, now if you had put "0 R" I would have got it right away... :lol:

Mark

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Elminster
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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by Elminster » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:25 am

hoglet wrote: Thanks, I''ve used him before. There will now be a short delay... :D
Your order was placed.
Estimated delivery: Wed., Aug. 02–Tue., Aug. 29
We'll send you an email confirmation soon.
Dave
Grr. I ordered mine before you from the same person and noticed my delivery date is Aug 03 to Aug 30. :cry:

For now I did it the hard way and used my new 16ch DSLogic Logic Analyser (much better than the knock off 8ch Saleae, but then it costs 10 times as much) to trace address calls for a minimal ATOM. i.e. just ROM/RAM and 6502. New respect for Roland doing this for the entire new Atom because there was no ICE-T!

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Re: ICE T65/Z80/6809

Post by hoglet » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:39 am

Elminster wrote: For now I did it the hard way and used my new 16ch DSLogic Logic Analyser (much better than the knock off 8ch Saleae, but then it costs 10 times as much) to trace address calls for a minimal ATOM.
Are you building a minimal Atom?

Sounds worthy of starting a new thread with some piccies.

Dave

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