YARRB [SOLD OUT]

discussion of games, software, hardware & emulators relating to the Acorn Atom and Acorn System machines.
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roland
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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by roland » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:47 pm

OK, that is settled then :D
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Re: YARRB

Post by etaoin » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:39 pm

Ok, almost working...

It is randomly switching graphic modes if I leave it alone. I'm sure I've seen that mentioned somewhere but can't find it right now. Something for tomorrow.
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IMG_7525.jpeg

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by anightin » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:44 pm

Here are my settings:

JP3 on 1-2
JP4 on 1-2 (pin 1 is at the CPLD side).
JP5 and P5 closed
P4 and P6 open


I notice you have JP5 open?


Best

Andy
Last edited by anightin on Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by etaoin » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:51 pm

anightin wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:44 pm
I notice you have JP5 open?
No, JP5 is jumpered. P5 is open but that has been pulled up as suggested by Roland in his mods list.

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by anightin » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:53 pm

Apologies, meant type P5 :oops:
To prevent writing to the EEPROM you can remove P5. But then you have to add a 4k7 resistor between the pins 31 and 32 of the EEPROM socket otherwise the EEPROM might not be readable (this is a design flaw in the board, this resistor should have been there).
Got it.
Last edited by anightin on Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by roland » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:29 pm

etaoin wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:39 pm
Ok, almost working...

It is randomly switching graphic modes if I leave it alone. I'm sure I've seen that mentioned somewhere but can't find it right now. Something for tomorrow.
On the previous page, Sirmorris had solved this issue by replacing the 8255 and the chips in the clock circuit. If you have spares, this is worth a try. If you need a 8255 to test, just let me know.
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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by etaoin » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:54 am

roland wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:29 pm
On the previous page, Sirmorris had solved this issue by replacing the 8255 and the chips in the clock circuit. If you have spares, this is worth a try. If you need a 8255 to test, just let me know.
Yes, what he observed seems very similar. I'll first replace the sockets around the clock, as they're crap anyway. The 8255 already has a new socket and I think isn't the original 8255 anyway (it's a NEC chip). I've used lots of 8255's for DIY stuff ages ago so I probably pulled the original at some point and replaced it later. I probably have one or two (used) spares.

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by etaoin » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:15 am

Quick question: is the duty cycle of the 4 MHz clock expected to be way off 50%? Does the CPLD care anyway?
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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by etaoin » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:21 am

etaoin wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:15 am
Quick question: is the duty cycle of the 4 MHz clock expected to be way off 50%? Does the CPLD care anyway?
Sorry, I'm being stupid. My 12 MHz sample rate will skew the duty cycle.

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Re: YARRB [switching to CLEAR 3]

Post by roland » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:01 pm

I did some measurements on my Yarrb'd Atom that continuously goes into CLEAR 3 graphical mode:
yarrb-setup.jpg
This was the first result:
Capture1.png
Please note the small spike in NRDS a few microseconds before the trigger (vertical white line) ....
A closer look:
Capture-zoom.png
This short NRDS pulse is a cpu read but the 8255 seems not to be ready. It's data lines are still in three state and the CPU "reads" B0. At the next write cycle which is part of the keyboard scan routine (the cpu writes a value to #B000 for selecting a row in the keyboard matrix) the cpu writes this erroneous value to port A which activates CLEAR 3.

As you can see in the trace, the cause of this error is in a short Phi2 pulse. With my (new \:D/ ) scope I checked Phi2 on the Yarrb board. It shows of course the same small pulses. Next I checked what is going into the 6502 (Phi0 which is the divided clock out of the cpld). That also shows those pulses. So the cpld outputs an incorrect clock signal. After seeing that, I was curious what was going into the cpld (ClkIn). That is the 4 MHz from the Atom main board.

When I set my probe on that track (pin 4 of the header right next to the 6502 on the Yarrb board, then I see a steady 4 MHz wave with some undershoot. But from that moment, the Atom won't go to CLEAR 3 any more. It stays in normal mode. As soon as I remove the probe, it goes into CLEAR 3 again. I can do the same trick with a small screw driver: touching that point makes the Atom run stable.

The next thing that I will try (tomorrow) is adding a > 10k resistor at ClkIn and GND or +5V to see what the effect will be. I have no real explanation for what is going on in the cpld. I cannot imagine that the divider is not correct because than I would expect every Yarrb board be faulty and that does also not explain why touching ClkIn (the 4 MHz signal) also solves the problem.

To be continued.....
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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by bprosman » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:01 pm

What new toy.. ehh scope do you have Roland ?

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Re: YARRB [switching to CLEAR 3]

Post by 1024MAK » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:20 pm

roland wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:01 pm
When I set my probe on that track (pin 4 of the header right next to the 6502 on the Yarrb board, then I see a steady 4 MHz wave with some undershoot. But from that moment, the Atom won't go to CLEAR 3 any more. It stays in normal mode. As soon as I remove the probe, it goes into CLEAR 3 again. I can do the same trick with a small screw driver: touching that point makes the Atom run stable.
The small amount of capacitance from either the ‘scope probe (including lead and ‘scope input capacitance), or from you and the screwdriver could be just enough to alter the signal slightly...

Mark

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Re: YARRB [switching to CLEAR 3]

Post by etaoin » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:50 am

roland wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:01 pm
As soon as I remove the probe, it goes into CLEAR 3 again.
That sounds suspiciously like what I had, the "It is randomly switching graphic modes if I leave it alone."

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by hoglet » Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:22 pm

Roland,

I have also had a problem very like this before - on the new Electron AP5. In that design there is a 4-bit counter, and the symptom was every so often the counter would seem to increment by two rather than by one. And just like you are seeing Roland, as soon as you apply a scope probe to the CPLD clock input, it stops happening.

What I concluded is that the XC9500XL series CPLD are very sensitive to noise/ringing on the clock input.

In YARRB you are taking the 4MHz clock input from IC44 pin 13:
ic44.PNG
This is driven directly by the 4MHz oscillator, and the feedback resistor (R26, 470R) my well be affecting the levels.

I would look at the 4MHz clock on your new scope. I'd look at:
- what's the nominal low level
- what's the nominal high level
- how much noise is there (use infinite persistance mode and leave it running for 5 minutes)
- can you catch any runt pulses (use the runt pulse triggering mode)

The fix might be as simple as adding a small capacitor (50-100pF), or a small series resistor (30-100R), or both.

So post some screen shots from your nice new scoop!

Dave

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by roland » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:02 pm

hoglet wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:22 pm
The fix might be as simple as adding a small capacitor (50-100pF), or a small series resistor (30-100R), or both.
Dave,

Short version:
We both came to the same solution and for people in a hurry: this works \:D/

Long version:I remembered this article in Atom News (sorry, only in Dutch) about reflections in long cables that were causing under- and overshoot. The solutions that I did once bitd was installing a series resistor of about 150 Ohm. I tried to make some screen dumps with my new scope but somehow I managed only to store a bin file of the wave form before the resistor was installed:
before.png
Blue = channel 1 (4 MHz)
You can clearly see the undershoot peak in this signal. After installing the resistor the signal looks like this:
after.png
Yellow = channel 1 (4 MHz)
Blue = channel 2 (Phi 2)
After installing this resistor:
resistor.jpg
Series resistor 180 Ohm just before pin 37 on the main board.
Now the Atom is running stable for more than half an hour at 1 and 2 MHz. And noise free :lol:

I will add this resistor by default (maybe 100 Ohm or so) in the Yarrb2 design, as close as possible at the ClkIn input of the CPLD.
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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by roland » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:07 pm

bprosman wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:01 pm
What new toy.. ehh scope do you have Roland ?
An Owon XDS2102A 12-bit High Resolution 100 MHz 1Ga/s with USB and LAN and VGA with many buttons and knobs :lol:
A picture is here.
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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by anightin » Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:55 pm

roland wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:02 pm
hoglet wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:22 pm
The fix might be as simple as adding a small capacitor (50-100pF), or a small series resistor (30-100R), or both.
Dave,

Short version:
We both came to the same solution and for people in a hurry: this works \:D/

Long version:I remembered this article in Atom News (sorry, only in Dutch) about reflections in long cables that were causing under- and overshoot. The solutions that I did once bitd was installing a series resistor of about 150 Ohm. I tried to make some screen dumps with my new scope but somehow I managed only to store a bin file of the wave form before the resistor was installed:

before.png

You can clearly see the undershoot peak in this signal. After installing the resistor the signal looks like this:

after.png

After installing this resistor:

resistor.jpg

Now the Atom is running stable for more than half an hour at 1 and 2 MHz. And noise free :lol:

I will add this resistor by default (maybe 100 Ohm or so) in the Yarrb2 design, as close as possible at the ClkIn input of the CPLD.
Thank you Roland, tried that mod on my randomly misbehaving ATOM and so far so good! (1 used 100R) =D>

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by Boydie » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:17 am

I've finally built mine. It's 95% functional, first time.
I'm using a new W65C02S6TPG (CMOIS 6502, up to 14MHz). I've set JP3 North and JP4 West, and made JP5 and 6. 39SF010A has been programmed with the image from diy.acornatom.nl.
It starts up fine, I can select BBC Mode without problems.

It won't play nicely with my AtoMMC (V 2.0), which previously worked fine with AtoMMC 3 ROM. If the SD card isn't in, the machine is quite happy and boots to the standard ATOM prompt (no ATOMMC banner).
If the SD card is in, the AtoMMC board busy light flashes briefly, I get the usual ATOM banner, then a solid cursor and the machine hangs. Pressing Break just repeats this cycle, until I remove the SD card and everything's peachy again.

Any suggestions what's going wrong? If I understand ?#BFFE correctly, I've tried selecting 1MHz clock (assuming that's both clock bits set to 0) but it makes no difference. I've done the resistor mod detailed above.

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by Boydie » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:25 am

Okay, a bit of progress...

LK3 was made. Now I've unmade it, the machine boots with the AtoMMC hardware fitted and SD card inserted.
Hoglet's test program shows it can communicate with the AtoMMC hardware.
?#BFFE=6 makes the machine hang after Break, with just the ATOM banner (no mention of ATOMMC).
CTRL-Break after that brings the ATOM banner back (still no mention of ATOMMC). Typing "*H." after that gives a "NO DISK" error.

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by oss003 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:50 am

Did you, in your old setup, use the #Axxx or #Exxx AtoMMC ROM?
Sounds like the interrupt is the problem so it has to be disabled if you are using the #Exxx version.
When the IRQ is disabled, LK3 can be in again.

You can check if the AtoMMC generates an IRQ by typing *CFG

*CFG (value)

Will show the configuaration byte currently stored in EEPROM if no value is specified, else the interface's config will be changed. The default value is $FF. The following bits have an effect:

5 ($20) - Enable Interrupts
6 ($40) - Shift-Break Action
7 ($80) - Enable Bootloader

Please try *CFG C0

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by Boydie » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:19 pm

Thanks for the ideas.

I've just tried it again, but with the original 6502 rather than the CMOS one. It works absolutely fine - ATOMMC banner and catalogues the card.
So it's clearly something the 65C02 is doing that's upsetting things.

Please can someone just confirm how all the jumpers should be set for each variant (as E vs W or N vs S, since the pins aren't actually numbered)? Just so I can exclude my own stupidity first...

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by Boydie » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:36 pm

Now the Atom's died!

One minute, it's all working fine. The next, dead as a doornail. I've removed the YARRB and reversed all the changes but still no display and no response to CTRL-G.
So I've now got to fix that before doing anything else...

Edit: It's not *completely* dead. There's no display whatsoever, but on powering up CTRL-G beeps once then doesn't work again until the machine is powered down and back up. Weird, huh?
Edit 2: It only does that single beep if there’s no 6847 present (discovered by accident). If there is - nothing. The 6847 works fine in another machine.
Edit 3: One of the legs had snapped off the 3.5795 MHz crystal. I can stop crying now. :)

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by Boydie » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:20 pm

Okay, so one "new" crystal later it's working.

AtoMMC works fine with either the original 6502 or a spare Model B one. It really hates the W65C02S6TPG-14.
Please can someone just clarify the JP4 positions for 6502 vs 65C02? As far as I can tell, the pins aren't labelled, and the various pictures people have posted seem to contradict each other. Is 1-2 with the link set to the West or East?

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by hoglet » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:02 pm

Boydie wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:20 pm
AtoMMC works fine with either the original 6502 or a spare Model B one. It really hates the W65C02S6TPG-14.
Please can someone just clarify the JP4 positions for 6502 vs 65C02? As far as I can tell, the pins aren't labelled, and the various pictures people have posted seem to contradict each other. Is 1-2 with the link set to the West or East?
For a Western Design W65C02 you want:
- JP4 fitted, linking pins 2 and 3 (pin 3 connects to pin 37 on the 6502)
- JP5 not fitted

Also, make sure that R1 (4K7) is fitted - it pulls the BE input of the W65C02 to 5V.

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by Boydie » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:34 pm

Thanks Dave.
The link options are as I thought. I've tried with both R1 and R2 fitted, and just R1. The result is the same - AtoMMC and the W65C02 just won't play nice together.
I suspect the effort required to get them to do so probably won't be justified by the benefits of succeeding.

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by roland » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:30 pm

I have never tried a W65C02S6TPG-14 on a Yarrb board or an Atom2k15. I copied the jumpers and resistors from another RAM/ROM board.

When I have to order some new components I will order such a CPU and test it, to see if I can get it working. But like you said, it is probably not worth the trouble because you cannot run your Atom at 14 MHz (unless you replace the crystal and change the clock divider in the CPLD).
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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by roland » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:13 pm

I now have installed a W65C02S6TPG-14 on my Yarrb board and the computer just displays

ACORN ATOM

>[]

and that's it. The RDY signal is steady at +5V so it seems the cpu has gone to sleep. IMHO almost everything is fine, otherwise it didn't print the welcome banner, the prompt and the cursor. I'll have to attach my logic sniffer to see what is happening here. This Atom runs fine with a normal 6502 or 65C02, I have installed both R1 and R2 and setting the jumpers in another position seems to have no effect. To be continued....
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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by hoglet » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:47 pm

roland wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:13 pm
I now have installed a W65C02S6TPG-14 on my Yarrb board and the computer just displays

ACORN ATOM

>[]

and that's it. The RDY signal is steady at +5V so it seems the cpu has gone to sleep.
Rdy is actually a bidirectional signal on the W65C02 - if the processor hits a WAI instruction, then Rdy will be pulled low by the processor.
roland wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:13 pm
IMHO almost everything is fine, otherwise it didn't print the welcome banner, the prompt and the cursor.
I agree.

Does pressing REPT cause anything to happen?

Hanging at this late stage (without random errors) is normally something to do with the 8255 (or a stuck down key on the keyboard).
roland wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:13 pm
I'll have to attach my logic sniffer to see what is happening here. This Atom runs fine with a normal 6502 or 65C02, I have installed both R1 and R2 and setting the jumpers in another position seems to have no effect. To be continued....
I'd be very interested to see where this is breaking.

Dave

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by roland » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:15 pm

Pressing REPT does not show any characters on the screen. I will also check if the 8255 is addressed and behaves as expected. It should be toggling the lower bits of the A-port to scan the keyboard.

It’s a pity that I am not at home this evening:(
It’ll have to wait until tomorrow.
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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by Boydie » Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:21 am

Is that an otherwise expansion-free Atom? In my case, it appears to work fine (so far as I can tell) with no other expansions fitted - keyboard works etc, and only hangs if AtoMMC is fitted *and* the machine knows about it and tries to use it.
Could it be that the W65C02 is more fussy about timings/clocks than the older ones, so any inconsistencies introduced by extra hardware may be enough to throw it?

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