YARRB [SOLD OUT]

discussion of games, software, hardware & emulators relating to the Acorn Atom and Acorn System machines.
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Elminster
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Re: YARRB

Post by Elminster » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:23 am

Yes audio of course, I was forgetting you don’t all have 100Mhz frequency response in your ears, like me :D

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sirmorris
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Re: YARRB

Post by sirmorris » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:56 am

So weirdness continues. This morning I thought I'd get some measuring done and lo, the machine is (almost) behaving itself. I've done nothing, it's in the same state I left it. But I get a (mostly) stable boot, ability to load the menu from SD card, and even run some of the software. I've written a hello world infinite scroller and left that running for the last 15 minutes without a glitch. Argh. I've literally this second turned around to check and noticed it has rebooted itself while I was typing. OLD locked up the machine and the screen is messed up. Another [BREAK] OLD and RUN and its working again.

I can't reach the end of the directory listing of the software archive SD card though. Ever. It's still hanging somewhere typically between Q and U.

The machine is nice and hot now, temperature doesn't seem to be a contributing factor. I have to go out but I'll do some measurings and reporting on jumper locations later today. I just thought this was worth mentioning.

C

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Re: YARRB

Post by 1024MAK » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:09 am

So it could be signal timing edge case then :(

This could be a tricky one...

Mark

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Re: YARRB

Post by anightin » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:33 pm

Hi Folks,

Day 2 for the new scope user and YARRB re-instated from a working ATOM issue 5 with AtoMMC. As per above, just wanted to be sure AtoMMC was working fine with just the Noisekiller board installed.

Back to the repeatable state of an Atom with YARRB just hanging on 'ACORN ATOM' after power up, or 'ACORN ATOM' with a prompt '>' with AtomMMC removed from PL8.

Calibrated the scope probes on 10x setting as suggested:
IMG_3631.jpeg
Then measured Phi2 (CH1) and Phi0 (CH2) -- No SY6502 fitted:
IMG_3632.jpeg
IMG_3633.jpeg
... and now with SY6502 fitted:
IMG_3640.jpeg

Thanks for your patience here -- your expertise is greatly appreciated :D . Welcome forum member suggestions for next steps in debugging this.... :?

Best wishes

anightin
Last edited by anightin on Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:50 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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hoglet
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Re: YARRB

Post by hoglet » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:30 pm

anightin wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:33 pm
Thanks for your patience here -- your expertise is greatly appreciated :D . Welcome forum member suggestions for next steps in debugging this.... :?
Something is still not right with the measurement on Phi0 on channel 2. Specifically:
- the signal appears to be going negative
- the signal is only about 350mV in amplitude

Can you double check that channel 2 is setup correctly:
- DC coupling
- Scope set to 10:1
- Probe set to 10:1
- Probe ground connected to a near-by ground point

After doing this, can you make the same measurement again.

Where are you measuring Phi0? Directly on Pin37 of the 6502?

What position is JP4 in?

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by anightin » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:10 pm

hoglet wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:30 pm
anightin wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:33 pm
Thanks for your patience here -- your expertise is greatly appreciated :D . Welcome forum member suggestions for next steps in debugging this.... :?
Can you double check that channel 2 is setup correctly:
- DC coupling
- Scope set to 10:1
- Probe set to 10:1
- Probe ground connected to a near-by ground point
Check
After doing this, can you make the same measurement again.
IMG_3642.jpeg
Where are you measuring Phi0? Directly on Pin37 of the 6502?
Yes, first measurement was with CPU unplugged, just to see if I could get something on the pins ( :oops: ) -- the measurement above was with the 6502 now plugged in
What position is JP4 in?
JP4 in 1-2
IMG_3641.jpeg
Last edited by anightin on Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Elminster
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Re: YARRB

Post by Elminster » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:09 pm

Wow is that over/under shoot and ringing normal in an Atom?

What does it say if you measure vmin and vbase ?

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Re: YARRB

Post by hoglet » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:13 pm

Elminster wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:09 pm
Wow is that over/under shoot and ringing normal in an Atom?
It's because the Phi0 signal is generated by the modern CPLD, so has very fast edges. It looks worse on the scope than it will be in reality because of the high inductance of a longish scope ground lead.

I don't now see anything that suggests there is an issue with Phi0.

Was this last measurement with the AtoMMC plugged in?

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by anightin » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:21 pm

Yup last measurement was with AtoMMC in.

Here is one I took just now with AtoMMC unplugged. The ATOM seems to boot file to a '>' prompt every time.
IMG_3646.jpeg
... soon as I plug ATOMMC back in, back to the usual 'ACORN ATOM' with no '>' as above.

I guess at least is is constent! I tried plugging in a new pair of DL74LS04N's again and get a heck of a lot of jitter -- which might explain why the ATOM goes very unstable with them. I might have purchased a bad batch of course.

Switching back to the originals brings me back to the stable and reproducible issue as presented.

Would appreciate your thoughts on what to tinker with next :)
Last edited by anightin on Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by hoglet » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:38 pm

anightin wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:21 pm
Yup last measurement was with AtoMMC in
Good, thanks for confirming that.

This is a tricky one....

There are a number of things you could try next...

1. When the system is hung, look with the scope at the sync signal. This will tell us if instructions are still being executed.

2. When the system is hung, look with the scope at each of the address lines. i.e. is it high, low, or changing? This might provide a clue as to where in the reset sequence things have stalled. But probably it won't.

3. Take a logic analyzer trace of the hang and use my 6502 decoder to see at what point things go wrong. You need the following signals: PHI2, D[7..0], RnW. In addition, nRST is useful so you can get a frame of reference. This could be with a cheap 16-bit Cypress FX2 based analyzer. Or do you have the logic analyzer option for the Rigol scope?

4. Swap in a different 6502 and see if the symptoms change at all

5. Swap in a different SRAM and see if the symptoms change at all

6. See how much of the AtoMMC is needed to cause the hang:
- the cable alone
- the cable plus the board with no chips fitted
- the cable plus the board plus the chips.

So lots of possible things to try, depending on what bits you have to hand.

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by hoglet » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:47 pm

One more thought...

Is LK3 (that enabled interrupts from PL8) on the Atom Board still made? If so, try breaking it.

The #E000 version of AtoMMC doesn't need it, and an interrupt at the wrong time from AtoMMC might be causing a crash.

Dave

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Re: YARRB

Post by anightin » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:59 pm

Ta. Will trot off any try the link which is currently made.

In the meantime I did pick a few things off the list:
1. When the system is hung, look with the scope at the sync signal. This will tell us if instructions are still being executed.
Sync is low when hung, toggling when I have a '>' e.g. with AtoMMC unplugged/chipless
IMG_3647.jpeg
(Only the green LOW LED is on when hung)
2. When the system is hung, look with the scope at each of the address lines. i.e. is it high, low, or changing?
TODO
3. Take a logic analyzer trace of the hang and use the the 6502 decoder to see at what point things go wrong. You need the following signals: PHI2, D[7..0], RnW. In addition, nRST is useful so you can get a frame of reference. This could be with a cheap 16-bit Cypress FX2 based analyzer. Or do you have the logic analyzer option for the Rigol scope?
Haven't got this option
4. Swap in a different 6502 and see if the symptoms change at all
Tried a MOS 6502 and the behaviour is the same
5. Swap in a different SRAM and see if the symptoms change at all
TODO
6. See how much of the AtoMMC is needed to cause the hang:
- the cable alone
- the cable plus the board with no chips fitted
- the cable plus the board plus the chips.
Pulling the AtoMMC chips out but board and cable in place lets the ATOM boot
Last edited by anightin on Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by anightin » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:14 pm

Hoglet I think you might be onto something with LK3 removed! :D

Has powered up 3 times in a row now with AtoMMC connected, with no screen corruption and more importantly always a '>' prompt :P
IMG_3648.jpeg
[-o<


Frustratingly I need to go and pack for a business trip abroad from tomorrow morning. Back on Friday.

Will definitely post more if I get further tonight.

Thanks again to everyone for your suggestions -- they've definitely kept me motivated and have learned more about my new scope that I would have otherwise 8)
Last edited by anightin on Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by hoglet » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:26 pm

anightin wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:14 pm
Hoglet I think you might be onto something with PL3 removed! :D

Has powered up 3 times in a row now with AtoMMC connected, with no screen corruption and more importantly always a '>' prompt :P
Are the chips back in AtoMMC?

Are you needing to press Ctrl-BREAK to get to the > prompt?

Here's a small test program to validate the Atom can talk to AtoMMC.

Code: Select all

10 FOR I=1 TO 10
20 ?#B400=#FE
30 PRINT &?#B400'
40 NEXT
50 END
You should see alternating AA and 55 bytes, exactly 5 of each. This is testing the heart-beat command of AtoMMC.

If you then change the #FE to #E0 you should get the AtoMMC firmware version (probably 2C).

If you then change the #E0 to #F0 you should get the Atommc config byte.

Each of these is a useful test.

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by hoglet » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:39 pm

Finally, you could try ?#BFFE=6 followed by BREAK.

See if that get AtoMMC initialized.

Dave

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Re: YARRB

Post by anightin » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:42 pm

Yup, everything is back, AtoMMC is alive! Dave, your's was the winning suggestion!

1. HDMI :)
2. Noise killer :)
3. RAM/ROM :)
4. AtoMMC :)

Yipee!
IMG_3649.jpeg
IMG_3650.jpeg
Brilliant work all round folks!! =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> :D



So, might be worth a note in the YARRB and AtoMMC instructions to consider removing LK3 if you don't get a '>' on boot? :P
Last edited by anightin on Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by hoglet » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:44 pm

This was an interesting one.

Although LK3 is not needed for the #E000 version of AtoMMC, it's not in my experience harmful to leave it made.

I've tried, and failed to reproduce this crash with my system.

Dave

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Re: YARRB

Post by sirmorris » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:50 am

So after much probing and messing around I'm still a little stumped.

I've checked jumper positions and clock waveforms and I'm happy they're in spec. No IRQ jumper is present. It's an R6502. I've changed the LS04 clock conditioner for a new chip even though the scope showed some nice clean signals.

I can boot to a prompt most of the time, but 1/4 resets produce a hang at the banner. Shift-Break will often load the title screen of the software menu, and often from there I can browse the collection. From there I can sometimes load a title but they will usually not run for long.

A weird thing is that ctrl-g does not produce a beep, but sound does work. If I load a sound-producing title that runs for a short while I can hear plips and bloops. If I change JP4 from 1+2 to 2+3 (wrong, I know!) then ctrl-g works even though the machine is unstable.

I can't find my ROMs to revert the machine to stock-ish, but I will look harder later as I think I need to eliminate factors one by one. I might try my RAMROM in there.

Does anyone else have any troubleshooting suggestions?

It seems that previously reported issues for other users have been solved one by one so I think there is probably no issue with YARRB itself, so if the sick machine is stable with RAMROM or in stock config I guess it must be an incompatibility like a marginal chip somewhere on the mainboard? With YARRB on board there's only about 10 chips left so replacing them one by one shouldn't be too hard :lol:

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Re: YARRB

Post by hoglet » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:32 am

Hi Charlie,

I spent a whole afternoon a few weeks ago trying to work out why my AtoMMC had stopped working. It coincided with a fair about of board plugging/unplugging as I was testing the Noise Killer board.

It turned out the AtoMMC cable had been pierced by a sharp component lead where it passes under the Atom Board.

This was causing all sorts of very weird issues, with the handshake sequence not working correctly.

So do exclude this as a possibility.

Dace

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Re: YARRB

Post by marcusjambler » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:40 pm

still need to set mine up.
I will want it to select AtoMMC at boot up so I may need so help with the re-programming

Marcus

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Re: YARRB

Post by sirmorris » Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:48 pm

@Dace* - I've tried a couple of AtoMMC boards and they behave the same so I don't think it's a mechanical issue, but thanks for the suggestion.

Further to that I undid the YARRB mods and swapped in my RAMROM and lo, the machine works perfectly. I can reliably run every program in the collection, there are no reset glitches or random keystrokes (did I mention those?) and ctrl-g produces the desired tone. So I think I can roundly say that the issue is with chip(s) on the mainboard upsetting YARRB.

One thing that popped into my mind as I am typing is that fitting the RAMROM necessitated IC44's removal. Perhaps it's IC44 - this is after all involved in the clock signal conditioning isn't it? And I've heard the clock mentioned a few times in this discussion. Now then where's my occam razor...


* :lol:

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Re: YARRB

Post by hoglet » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:30 pm

sirmorris wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:50 am
A weird thing is that ctrl-g does not produce a beep, but sound does work. If I load a sound-producing title that runs for a short while I can hear plips and bloops. If I change JP4 from 1+2 to 2+3 (wrong, I know!) then ctrl-g works even though the machine is unstable.
The Ctrl-G thing is interesting, as there are a couple of different ways to make an Atom squeak.

As you know, the speaker is hooked up to Port C bit 2. So the normal way to make a click is to directly toggle bit 2, e.g.:

Code: Select all

 
LDA #B002
EOR @#04
STA #B002
Most games I think do this.

The Ctrl-G code in the MOS uses a different pattern:

Code: Select all

 
FD1A  A9 05     LDA @#5
FD1C  A8        TAY
FD1D  8D 03 B0  STA #B003
FD20  CA        DEX
FD21  D0 FD     BNE #FD20
FD23  49 01     EOR @#1
FD25  C8        INY
FD26  10 F5     BPL #FD1D
FD28  60        RTS
This is using the Port C bit set/reset operation: bit's 3..1 set the bit number (010 = bit 2). and bit 0 sets the value.

If Ctrl-G isn't working, then it looks like writes B003 are not reliable.
sirmorris wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:50 am
Does anyone else have any troubleshooting suggestions?
I would try a different 6502 and/or a different 8255, and see if that affects the sound bug.

I would also hook up a cheapo logic analyzer to Phi2, D7..0, nRST and RnW and try to capture a log of a crash/hang.

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by sirmorris » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:31 pm

I suspected the 8255 as occasional flips into graphics mode could be explained by it. And indeed changing it out has solved the problems. Ctrl-G now sings beautifully :lol:

It was still glitchy though so I set about swapping out chips and the 3 clock related bods around IC44 were my best educated guess at a good place to start and I'm pleased to say 2 new '04s and a new '393 have solved it.

The machine is now rock solid \:D/ \:D/ Thanks everyone.

Now I only hope the couriers don't cuss it up on the return journey!
Last edited by sirmorris on Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by roland » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:18 pm

I am glad that you solved it by replacing those three ic's but I am curious what really caused the problems. Are you willing to figure that out by for example comparing the most critical signals at the good and the bad ic's?

Or just sent those ic's to me so We can investigate this on the next user group meeting in July....
FPGAtom: 512 KB RAM, Real Time Clock and 64 colours
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Re: YARRB

Post by anightin » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:54 am

marcusjambler wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:40 pm
still need to set mine up.
I will want it to select AtoMMC at boot up so I may need so help with the re-programming

Marcus
I am in the same boat wrt booting AtoMMC as default, so ended up getting a cheap Xilinx USB programmer from eBay and some free software from Xilinx to install on my Windlows 10 laptop to do the job. Thanks to excellent help from forum members getting set up wasn't too difficult. I haven't actually reprogrammed yet as ran out of time before my business trip but will pick up from here when I return:

viewtopic.php?p=238998#p238998

Hope this helps Marcus
Last edited by anightin on Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: YARRB

Post by sirmorris » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:58 am

roland wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:18 pm
I am curious what really caused the problems.
Are you willing to figure that out by for example comparing the most critical signals at the good and the bad ic's?
I suspect that one or all are marginal in some parameter or other. I'm no detective though, and wouldn't know where to begin with an analysis like this... Plus the machine is on its way back to its owner.
roland wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:18 pm
Or just sent those ic's to me so We can investigate this on the next user group meeting in July....
I'll be happy to do that! PM me an address and I'll ship them to you.
C

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YARRB [ SOLD OUT ]

Post by roland » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:20 pm

Dear friends,

Today I have sold the last Yarrb boards. Due to some issues I have decided to stop selling these boards:
  • Most components are hard to get from regular sellers - there are only Chinese suppliers still selling those
  • Some Atoms behave strange with a Yarrb board and need some extra investigation to become stable with a Yarrb board
  • It's time for a new challenge (*)
(*) I have an idea for a new board that turns your Atom into a powerful machine without lot of modifications and still for a reasonable price. I will start a new topic when I have worked out my idea.
FPGAtom: 512 KB RAM, Real Time Clock and 64 colours
MAN WOMAN :shock:

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by Lardo Boffin » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:50 pm

Don’t blame you! I hope my Atom wasn’t the last nail in the coffin. :?
Atom, issue 5
Elk
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
USA Model B
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roland
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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by roland » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:57 pm

Lardo Boffin wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:50 pm
Don’t blame you! I hope my Atom wasn’t the last nail in the coffin. :?
I lost track a bit .... is your Atom already working with Yarrb or not?
FPGAtom: 512 KB RAM, Real Time Clock and 64 colours
MAN WOMAN :shock:

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Re: YARRB [SOLD OUT]

Post by Lardo Boffin » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:59 pm

roland wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:57 pm
Lardo Boffin wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:50 pm
Don’t blame you! I hope my Atom wasn’t the last nail in the coffin. :?
I lost track a bit .... is your Atom already working with Yarrb or not?
Mine had a suspect socket. Sir Morris very kindly ended up looking at it and got it working after replacing a bunch of chips. :D
Atom, issue 5
Elk
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
USA Model B
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