Raspberry Pi 400

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Andy1979
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Raspberry Pi 400

Post by Andy1979 »

Well this looks fantastic:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/ra ... rType=home

Image

Spiritual successor to the BBC Micro / A30x0?

4gb RAM and a heatsink to keep it running quickly.

I think Risc OS 5.28 has arrived just in time to run on this, assuming hardware is identical to the Pi 4B.

Currently resisting the urge to buy - new job and toddler mean I just don't have the time to tinker with something like this right now.
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tarcus69
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by tarcus69 »

Yeah I was just itching to buy one myself, but I've got so many Pis already. I'd prefer the 8 gig in there, and a better keyboard though. Should be easy enough to put a Pi in a normal keyboard though but at the end of the day, I don't need any more Pis and any more keyboards, particularly poor quality ones so despite wanting to buy one I think I'll leave it.
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JasonStonier
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by JasonStonier »

Saw that today - looks awesome. I actually built my own version a few months back by stripping down a Pi 4 to the bare bones of ports - it's running an Amiga emulator most of the time and works really well. This official version is very neat indeed.
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tarcus69
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by tarcus69 »

I've only just cottoned on that it's not a Pi 4 in a case, I'd half intended to buy one and put the Pi 4 8GByte in there instead but it's not a Pi 4, it's a new purpose-made Pi on a new board rather than a Pi4 with a ports extension board.
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JasonStonier
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by JasonStonier »

tarcus69 wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:29 pm
Should be easy enough to put a Pi in a normal keyboard though...
It is pretty easy - first thing is to clip the ethernet and USB ports off (and wire them back on with flying leads) - then the Pi will fit in pretty much anything. My favourite one I've done uses an old Cherry PS2 mechanical keyboard which has bags of space inside - enough to fit a PS2>USB converter, radial cooling fan, USB hub, and USB>D9 joystick adapter. It's my main retro machine...if only it would run a BBC Emulator at any kind of speed.
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tarcus69
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by tarcus69 »

I did actually buy one in the end, because I'm a sucker. The intention is to use it as an alternative to my desktop machines as a bridge to the modern world for the retrocomputers, a sort-of modern home computer.
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JasonStonier
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by JasonStonier »

Weellll...it's Christmas. Treat yourself.

Be interested to know how you get on with it.
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jonb
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by jonb »

I think a Pi4 8GB in the new Argon M.2 case, with 500GB M.2 SSD module fitted. Full sized HDMIs and a proper (albeit external) keyboard. Whoosh.
iainjh
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by iainjh »

on the BBC news website:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54782255

inc a reference to the BBC, and a pic of a genuine Retroclinic BBC Master!
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by stephen_usher »

Should have had red function keys to hark back to the original Archimedes. :-)
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tarcus69
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by tarcus69 »

jonb wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:18 pm
I think a Pi4 8GB in the new Argon M.2 case, with 500GB M.2 SSD module fitted. Full sized HDMIs and a proper (albeit external) keyboard. Whoosh.
The 400 seems to be deliberately marketed as a low-cost computer, presumably that's why they went for the 4 gig instead of 8, and may not produce an 8 gig version because if they do, similar to the BBC B and A or Spectrum 48k and 16k, people will develop for the higher spec machine making the lower spec machine meaningless.

Also I have several 4Bs including an 8 gig version, they're still often painfully slow as a desktop system.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by Marvin »

tarcus69 wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:55 am
Also I have several 4Bs including an 8 gig version, they're still often painfully slow as a desktop system.
What the heck are you running on it ? It must be some seriously bloated software.

We used to "manage" with computers with CPU's that ran in the hundred mhz and only had a few megabytes of ram.

The fastest Pi I have is the 3B+ and that runs everything fast enough for me.
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BigEd
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by BigEd »

I used to have a 2MHz system with 32k of RAM. Oh hang on, I still do...
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fordp
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by fordp »

Marvin wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:40 am
We used to "manage" with computers with CPU's that ran in the hundred mhz and only had a few megabytes of ram.
We used to dream of one day having a megabyte, but you try telling that to the youth of today and they will not believe you!
FordP (Simon Ellwood)
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dp11
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by dp11 »

A 4GB Pi has 128K of RAM for every byte of RAM on a 32K Beeb
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tarcus69
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by tarcus69 »

Size comparison with my normal keyboard. The keys are similar size but it's safe to say it's not that nice to type on but then it wasn't going to be, that type of keyboard is not really made for keyboard junkies.
PXL_20201103_145919601.MP.jpg
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jonb
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by jonb »

tarcus69 wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:55 am

The 400 seems to be deliberately marketed as a low-cost computer, presumably that's why they went for the 4 gig instead of 8, and may not produce an 8 gig version because if they do, similar to the BBC B and A or Spectrum 48k and 16k, people will develop for the higher spec machine making the lower spec machine meaningless.

Also I have several 4Bs including an 8 gig version, they're still often painfully slow as a desktop system.
8GB Pi 4 with USB3 SSD is lightning fast. Check out a YouTube vid.
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JasonStonier
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by JasonStonier »

jonb wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:38 pm
8GB Pi 4 with USB3 SSD is lightning fast. Check out a YouTube vid.
The specs are better than my actual gaming PC...
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BigEd
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by BigEd »

dp11 wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:01 pm
A 4GB Pi has 128K of RAM for every byte of RAM on a 32K Beeb
Should I think of it as a Beeb's worth of Masters, or a Master's worth of Beebs?
Marvin
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by Marvin »

BigEd wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:58 am
I used to have a 2MHz system with 32k of RAM. Oh hang on, I still do...
Same here, you've only got to look at what 0xC0DE has achieved with his latest game Elementum with only 32K of RAM in total. I'd wager that a single icon on tarcus69 bloated Pi4 install requires more memory than that.

I find it insane that we have computers way more powerful than we could ever have dreamed of when started out and yet we still find ways to make them run slow.

The computers we have nowadays should be so fast that they give us the answer almost before we ask them if the software was written well.
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tricky
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by tricky »

Marvin wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:28 pm
...
I find it insane that we have computers way more powerful than we could ever have dreamed of when started out and yet we still find ways to make them run slow.
...
I think MS win that one with Office 365, which seems to be written in JS+node.JS and each "app" contains a version of chromium!

On the Pi400, does anyone know how the keyboard matrix is handled?
As in, N-key rollover or whatever doesn't clash on the grid - ultimately, how many and which keys can you hold down without loosing any info.
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tarcus69
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by tarcus69 »

Marvin wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:28 pm
Same here, you've only got to look at what 0xC0DE has achieved with his latest game Elementum with only 32K of RAM in total. I'd wager that a single icon on tarcus69 bloated Pi4 install requires more memory than that.
Ditch the attitude please, it's a straight Raspbian install, same as on the Pi 400.
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tarcus69
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by tarcus69 »

tricky wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 10:47 am
On the Pi400, does anyone know how the keyboard matrix is handled?
As in, N-key rollover or whatever doesn't clash on the grid - ultimately, how many and which keys can you hold down without loosing any info.
It appears to be basically the "official" Pi keyboard but wired into a USB port internally. There are three USB ports on the back instead of four, one of the USB 2 ports is missing. I'm typing on it at the moment, it's a bit "dead flesh" really. If I hold down one key I can press another, e.g. QWWWWW is me holding down Q then tapping W but qwerrrrrrrrrrrrrrr is me going through qwerty holding down keys, it stops noticing at R, so it looks like 4 keys.
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JasonStonier
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by JasonStonier »

I didn't read it as attitude - just a commentary on the way increasing power and memory has led to lazy coding techniques.

I think of how I struggled to get a linux installation down to under 128 MB for a very early solid state drive in an embedded system...when compared to my Amiga which has a fully functional desktop environment on a 1.44MB floppy disk and cracked along on 2MB of chip RAM.

Now I love the Pi ecosystem in general, Linux in particular, and the innovation that it's encouraging, but you can't deny that a single hi-res icon on Raspbian would eat up an awful lot of the screen memory on a beeb :D
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JasonStonier
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by JasonStonier »

Here's my version - the CherryPi.

Pi4 4gig, integrated USB hub, PS2>USB converter for the Cherry mechanical keyboard, radial cooling fan, Amiga joystick > USB converter.

Boots into Amiga Workbench, but a couple of keystrokes puts me in Raspbian - and it's my daily computer.
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cherryPi_f.jpg
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tarcus69
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by tarcus69 »

JasonStonier wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:34 am
I didn't read it as attitude - just a commentary on the way increasing power and memory has led to lazy coding techniques.
Unfortunately when you get told you're doing something wrong, then later name-checked as having a bloated install, it does come across as attitude. I don't want to drag it out any further but he can cut that out.

As for bloatware, browsers are a big problem, they're now operating systems in their own right, and run effectively several virtual machines inside them, they can soak up a Pi's power pretty quickly particularly with multiple tabs open. I use "virt-viewer" on some older Pis to give me a thin client that works pretty well and allows a virtual machine's desktop to follow me around the house. On the Pi 400 it works very fast as it does on the other Pi 4s. Chromium tends to bog down a bit more than I'd like on these machines but much improved over the Pi3.
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tarcus69
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by tarcus69 »

JasonStonier wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:43 am
Here's my version - the CherryPi.
Nice, and I'll bet it feels a lot better than this thing (the 400) does!

I move between several different keyboards, a C64, Electron, Beeb, A3000, Pi 400, a laptop, and several DAS tenkeyless keyboards, they all have little variations so I'm always hitting wrong keys which is annoying. The C64 and Acorns have some particularly annoying differences, e.g. delete is at the top right on the C64 and most of the others but on the bottom right on the BBC and Electron. Also on some, the colon and semicolon swap places which is an endless source of "fun"..
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JasonStonier
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by JasonStonier »

As a habitual terminal user, I find I can't get out of the habit of hitting the Up Arrow to repeat the last command. Every time I do it on the beeb I'm like "what? I have to type the whole frikken command in AGAIN?"...

In other news, my folks were staying with us last week and my mum spent every minute of her spare time (re)playing Repton 3 on my beeb. Once b-em is up to speed on the Pi I'll be sorting her out a Pi 400 for Repton on the big telly.
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by mr-macrisc »

I like this

I also like how some people are now looking at pcie 1x connector on new computer module and have sata adapters running and some good signs they may get gfx cards running. It at least opens up some desktop storage options
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tarcus69
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Re: Raspberry Pi 400

Post by tarcus69 »

JasonStonier wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:09 pm
As a habitual terminal user, I find I can't get out of the habit of hitting the Up Arrow to repeat the last command. Every time I do it on the beeb I'm like "what? I have to type the whole frikken command in AGAIN?"...

In other news, my folks were staying with us last week and my mum spent every minute of her spare time (re)playing Repton 3 on my beeb. Once b-em is up to speed on the Pi I'll be sorting her out a Pi 400 for Repton on the big telly.
Yes the copy thing is weird, but also the star commands on my Archies and BBCs, as a long-time Linux user, cat and dir bend my mind every time..

I've long been surprised at the relative lack of simple updated options for BBC emulation on Linux, I need to go through them again, is b-em the best currently or are there other good ones? I don't have any Windows machines to run emulators on.
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