BeebEm Mac - Info

want to talk about MESS/model b/beebem/b-em/electrem/elkulator? do it here!
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lurkio
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Thu May 02, 2019 12:13 pm

SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:36 am
Count me in on this. I'm happy to help out. I have an active Apple developer account also. Can i suggest that look to rebuild the UI out in Swift?
No one is actively working on fixing bugs in Mac BeebEm or on developing it at all.

This is an open call for anyone with the skills and interest to do so to make themselves known, please..!

[-o<

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JudgeBeeb
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by JudgeBeeb » Thu May 02, 2019 12:40 pm

lurkio wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:11 pm
please do add it to the list of Issues on Github. All potential issues need recording.
Done
lurkio wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:11 pm
I don't believe anyone is actively developing it currently. guddler no longer has time to.
That's a great pity. Hopefully someone will come forward. I would love to assist; but I just don't have the skills.
There is so much wonder in the universe; why should you want to imagine that there is more?

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by SpaceFlightOrange » Thu May 02, 2019 1:22 pm

lurkio wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:13 pm
SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:36 am
Count me in on this. I'm happy to help out. I have an active Apple developer account also. Can i suggest that look to rebuild the UI out in Swift?
No one is actively working on fixing bugs in Mac BeebEm or on developing it at all.

This is an open call for anyone with the skills and interest to do so to make themselves known, please..!

[-o<
I’ll start picking this up. I don’t have a huge amount of time and I’m working (or about to start work on) another project: a new disk image explorer for MacOS, which is mainly a learning exercise for me to get my head around the disk image formats, etc. But once that’s done, i’ll Move on to BeebEm.

Just dont expect anything right away [-X

I really want to work on this though, so I’m pretty motivated :D
Last edited by SpaceFlightOrange on Thu May 02, 2019 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
James

BBC Model A Issue 3 (Upgraded to Model B, had it since I was a kid), Opus Dual 40/80 FDD, Watford Mouse, Voltmace delta 14/B, Gotek, IFEL ROMRAM-B4, Pi-Zero CoPro

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guddler
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Thu May 02, 2019 1:33 pm

If you want any info regarding where I got to then feel free to PM me.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by SpaceFlightOrange » Thu May 02, 2019 2:05 pm

guddler wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:33 pm
If you want any info regarding where I got to then feel free to PM me.
Will do. Thanks.

I've forked the repo. Haven't tried building yet. I'll have a look through this weekend and then drop you a message.
James

BBC Model A Issue 3 (Upgraded to Model B, had it since I was a kid), Opus Dual 40/80 FDD, Watford Mouse, Voltmace delta 14/B, Gotek, IFEL ROMRAM-B4, Pi-Zero CoPro

Master 128, VideoNuLA, Gotek

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 » Sun May 12, 2019 8:40 am

I can confirm that this:

https://drive.guddler.uk/d/f/443181297079165026

runs without hitch on MacOS 10.14.5 beta 5. :D

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Sun May 12, 2019 9:51 am

That’s good to hear!

Incidentally, I forgot that link was there. It’s the same as the release on the official site now so no need to use my link.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by SpaceFlightOrange » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:03 pm

Hello.

Just an update. As you know MacOS Catalina is in Beta, and will be released in September. With this release, Apple are dropping support for 32-bit applications.

BeebEm Mac uses the Carbon API to run. This was deprecated in 2012, and as such, Apple never created a 64-bit version of Carbon.

This means that the Current BeebEm will not run on Catalina, you will see this if you try to install and run:
Screenshot 2019-06-30 at 23.43.48.png
I've finally gotten round to looking at this, but it's going to take a lot of work. It doesn't help that I have no Carbon experience. My thoughts at the moment are to recreate project, and rebuild the UI using storyboards and swift. You can't bridge the C++ code to swift, so, to do this will mean creating an Objective C wrapper.

My first step is to try and understand how the code all fits together currently, I don't know if Jon W or Guddler can help out here?

I'll try and get this done in time for the official release.
James

BBC Model A Issue 3 (Upgraded to Model B, had it since I was a kid), Opus Dual 40/80 FDD, Watford Mouse, Voltmace delta 14/B, Gotek, IFEL ROMRAM-B4, Pi-Zero CoPro

Master 128, VideoNuLA, Gotek

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by g7jjf » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:16 am

I don't know anything about storyboard, Swift or Objective C but if you want to contact me personally, I will try and answer any questions you have about how things fit together at the moment.

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Elminster
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:03 am

A slight aside but going to Catalina is going to be a pain. I have loads of 32bit apps where I either need to find a replacement, as no longer made, or pay money to go to a 64 bit version. And must 64bit versions outside of App Store are going subscription based.

I do have a VM for Mac, will have to upgrade to Catalina and start testing.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:20 am

Well it’s not like we haven’t known about this for a long, long time now! Pretty sure this is my only 32bit app left although I do need to check the JDK I use for work.

I’ll bow out now as I can’t be of any further help. I only really stepped in to build the current signed version and never got round to digging much deeper.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:56 am

Well, many thanks to guddler for ensuring that Mac BeebEm works on Mojave. I guess the torch passes to James/SpaceFlightOrange now to see if he can cut a path through the tangle of APIs and knock the app into shape for future versions of macOS. Good luck!

Incidentally, I've finally upgraded to Mojave after years of what I now realise was pointless languishing on Yosemite. A couple of thoughts:
  • JSBeeb doesn't produce any sound in Safari 12.1.1. Is that the same for everyone or is it just me? (I'm seeing the issue in all versions of JSBeeb: the ones on bbcmicro.co.uk and the latest one on bbc.godbolt.org too.)
  • Thanks to guddler, Mac BeebEm still seems to work fine on Mojave, but so too does the beta of the Windows version of BeebEm 4.15 when it's installed with WineBottler so that it runs under WINE. Does anyone know if WINE and WineBottler will still work in Catalina (the next version of macOS)?
  • Having upgraded to Mojave, I finally have a version of macOS that can comfortably run b2 — Tom Seddon's new Beeb emulator. Looks good! I'll have to play with it a bit more.
:?:
Last edited by lurkio on Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by SpaceFlightOrange » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:47 pm

g7jjf wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:16 am
I don't know anything about storyboard, Swift or Objective C but if you want to contact me personally, I will try and answer any questions you have about how things fit together at the moment.
Thanks Jon.

I'll drop you a line when I've got my head into the code properly. Its mainly going to be about Carbon, Nothing about Swift etc.
James

BBC Model A Issue 3 (Upgraded to Model B, had it since I was a kid), Opus Dual 40/80 FDD, Watford Mouse, Voltmace delta 14/B, Gotek, IFEL ROMRAM-B4, Pi-Zero CoPro

Master 128, VideoNuLA, Gotek

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Elminster
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:18 pm

guddler wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:20 am
Well it’s not like we haven’t known about this for a long, long time now! Pretty sure this is my only 32bit app left although I do need to check the JDK I use for work.
Unfortunately, I can't make people update to 64bit.

I have a few on my Mac:
  • webex plugin
    meeting centre plugin
    Myharmony remote software
    Network config software (I do have an app I can use)
    Steam and a few games.
Loads of others but probably will just delete them/find equiv 64 bit software.

Hopefully as we get closer 64bit versions will come out, I suspect the games will never work though. Not that I ever have time to play them.

But I am happy to test Beebem if/when updated if I upgrade my VM to Catalina.

Edit: one less, I noticed cool term released 64 bit version for Mac
Last edited by Elminster on Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:03 pm

SpaceFlightOrange wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:47 pm
Thanks Jon. I'll drop you a line when I've got my head into the code properly. Its mainly going to be about Carbon, Nothing about Swift etc.
Btw, I know it's still early days, but do you want me to request that you be added to the Stardot Mac BeebEm GitHub?:
:?:

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:19 am

I am currently running Mac OS Mojave and keep getting the Cataline Beta "shoved up my nose", but have no intention of
upgrading as about 75% of the software I use on a daily basis is 32-bit only.

Mind you, I have a PPC G5 iMac running Mac OS 10.4 and 9.2.2 because I've a slew of software I still use that
is dependent on that machine.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by SpaceFlightOrange » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:39 am

lurkio wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:03 pm
Btw, I know it's still early days, but do you want me to request that you be added to the Stardot Mac BeebEm GitHub?:
:?:
That would be good, but there's no rush. I've Forked and any changes I was going send back via a PR.

Thanks
James

BBC Model A Issue 3 (Upgraded to Model B, had it since I was a kid), Opus Dual 40/80 FDD, Watford Mouse, Voltmace delta 14/B, Gotek, IFEL ROMRAM-B4, Pi-Zero CoPro

Master 128, VideoNuLA, Gotek

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:43 pm

Been on Catalina a week now, no issues, other than BeebEm doesn't work of course. Only app so far, as there was a flurry of 64bit app updates in the last couple of months.

Was a smooth process. Unlike IOS13 (unlucky for some) which bricked my Ipad air2 (as it did for many people), had to do a DFU restore, the normal restore would not work, even now it is very sluggish (Apple telling me to buy a new iPad maybe).

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:47 am

Apple telling me to buy a new
Well: what can I say except:

1. They don't make their products because they love you.

2. If the blatant commercial push of Microsoft and Apple get too much it is probably time to consider Linux.

3. In the light of #2 I should like to point out that this, hypocritically, is being typed on a December 2018 Mac Mini.

4. AND, re #2 as well, (this could run and run), I am well fekked-off with the Ubuntu people giving up on 32-bit
versions as my EFL school runs 10 32-bit computers that are on average about 10 years old that do just fine for
what they are intended (content delivery and reinforcement) . . . so they'll be stuck on Xubuntu 18.04 until
they go "bang." :D

5. Why do so many people get an uncontrollable urge to 'upgrade' their computer systems when it isn't
always in their best interests?

6. Any "Nutty Fruitcakes" round these parts using absolutely neolithic computers such as the BBC Model B
should understand that #5 is a moot point. 8)

7. Still having problems retrieving saved programs from my cassette player: so really haven't got time to worry
about Macintosh 10.15.

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Elminster
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:07 am

richmond62 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:47 am
Apple telling me to buy a new

2. If the blatant commercial push of Microsoft and Apple get too much it is probably time to consider Linux.
Well I have been using Linux for 25 years, just after Linus lunched it to the public, I am also an expired RHCE, but I still prefer MacOS as my main desktop, I have Linux on the laptop (but it is 64bit :) )

Edit: before Linux used to play with FreeBSD flavours, but forward thinking techies installed this new Linux thing in several of the labs at uni. I wrote a MUD on them as my final year project.
5. Why do so many people get an uncontrollable urge to 'upgrade' their computer systems when it isn't
always in their best interests?
because you have no choice if you want to talk to other stuff, Apple only release security fixes for last 3 MacOS, and one previous version of IOS. Putting insecure system anywhere near the internet is asking for trouble. On an isolate network that is fine, as long as no usb or other media will be plugged in.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:35 pm

you have no choice if you want to talk to other stuff
That is rather specious, and most of it is propaganda pushed out by Microsoft and Apple.

I stay in Bulgaria (the home of Viruses, Trojans and all sorts of other internet "evils"), and have been
running a load of G5 iMacs running 10.4 and 10.5, Intel iMacs running 10.6 and 10.7, an ancient Mac Mini running 10.4
and so forth for about 12 years now: all connected to the internet, and never once had any trouble: if one is prepared to make
a small effort one can do just fine.

I am continually "talking" to all sorts of other machines. 8)
Last edited by richmond62 on Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Elminster
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:13 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:35 pm
you have no choice if you want to talk to other stuff
That is rather specious, and most of it is propaganda pushed out by Microsoft and Apple.
Most of the succeful hacks on business are usually exploiting vulnerabilities that have already been fixed in new versions of the O/S or patches have been done but not applied. Rather than the zero day hacks. I am afraid it is all true, and I have had to sort a number of hacked system before, as part of my day job, all were avoidable if up to date O/S had been used, or he system had been setup correctly.

Lots of Denial of service bots attacks make use of unpatch machines to launch attackers on networks that are hardened. It is just how things work.

It is it so much that Apple force you to upgrade, it is more that they don’t security patch systems older than 3 years old that is the issue.

I treat my home network like I would a customers.

You can of course do what you want, just don’t launch any bot net attacks my way. :evil:

Edit: I should also point out the hacked system were all Linux, not an issue with Linux per sa, as they hadn’t been patched or hardened correctly.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:39 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:35 pm
I stay in Bulgaria (the home of Viruses, Trojans and all sorts of other internet "evils"), and have been
running a load of G5 iMacs running 10.4 and 10.5, Intel iMacs running 106 and 10.7, an ancient Mac Mini running 10.4
and so forth for about 12 years now: all connected to the internet, and never once had any trouble: if one is prepared to make
a small effort one can do just fine.
All about the risk you are willing to accept, and how it is managed. Generally people aren’t going to be writing new stuff targeting old architectures and O/Ss,but that doesn’t make it invulnerable. There is always a risk.

But possibly digressing now away from original topic about Beebem..........

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by richmond62 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:58 pm

But possibly digressing now away from original topic about Beebem..........
Gosh, Yes, guilty as charged. :D

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