BeebEm Mac - Info

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guddler
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BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:30 pm

Hi all,

As you probably know the latest version of BeebEm for Mac has a few difficulties with the security measures in High Sierra. I have been in touch with Jon Welch and have been discussing getting a new build going that resolves these problems. This work is making progress and hopefully there will be a new version to share soon. I make no promises however!

Longer term, as Jon has implied himself, the future is not so rosy as there is a lot of work involved to bring the application up to date, especially as Apple moves quicker than most on these things, but I am hoping to help progress there as well.

For now, do not update to 10.14 (Mojave) or any of it's betas if you want to continue to use BeebEm for Mac

I'll take a look at the impact of Mojave as soon as the distribution issues are sorted.

Clearly there are alternatives to BeebEm for Mac now that I myself may well also use, but I rather like this one for it's true Mac Application and feel it would be a shame to see it die off so I'll help where I can.

Martin.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:34 pm

Might be interesting to know who is, might or would use BeebEm on Mac. i.e. for testing purposes. Currently we know of

Code: Select all

- Jon Welch (primary maintainer)
- You (guddler, maintainer helper in training?)
- Me (elminster)
- Lurkio
- Dave Hitchins
- geraldholdsworth
- Danielj
- mlouka
Anyone else?
Last edited by Elminster on Mon Sep 03, 2018 5:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by geraldholdsworth » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:51 pm

Elminster wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:34 pm
Might be interesting to know who is, might or would use BeebEm on Mac. i.e. for testing purposes.
Me - I use it as my primary emulator for the Master. I prefer it to the Windoze version...also, mainly because I use my Mac more than my Windoze laptop.

Oh, and I use High Sierra and have had no issues with running version 4.0a of BeebEm either.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:56 pm

Elminster wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:34 pm
Might be interesting to know who is, might or would use BeebEm on Mac. i.e. for testing purposes
I think danielj also uses a Mac -- though he doesn't like to talk about it. :D

geraldholdsworth wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:51 pm
Oh, and I use High Sierra and have had no issues with running version 4.0a of BeebEm either.
But surely you first had to make an alias or use the xattr command or something?

:?:

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by geraldholdsworth » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:00 pm

lurkio wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:56 pm
But surely you first had to make an alias or use the xattr command or something
Do what now?
It just worked. No fiddling about.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:03 pm

Elminster wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:34 pm
Might be interesting to know who is, might or would use BeebEm on Mac. i.e. for testing purposes.
Good idea - thanks. Though I think while it would be useful to know how much it is still used, a list of those that would be willing and have the knowledge to be able to test would be better.
geraldholdsworth wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:51 pm
Oh, and I use High Sierra and have had no issues with running version 4.0a of BeebEm either.
Quite, it worked OK for me too but I knew how to deal with the Gatekeeper issues, some people have not been so lucky.

Lurkio sent me a few issues but these are the ones that I've confirmed off the top of my head:
  • If installing fresh on High Sierra the application won't run as it get's quarantined and worse, sandboxed
  • If upgrading from an earlier OS version you probably won't hit these issues as long as BeebEm was already installed
  • If you have 'Install from anywhere' enabled you also probably won't have any issues but that's not an acceptable solution, especially since the option does not exist in system preferences any more
  • Double-clicking the title bar or clicking the green "full screen" (used to be maximise) button will make the application crash under circumstances still not wholly diagnosed.
There are more, and clearly none of these are emulation related issues. That's not (yet) the point of me helping.
Last edited by guddler on Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:10 pm

I'm going to say something that seems very polarising and controversial now so please don't turn this into a TouchBar flame thread!!

I just thought to mention that I use Better Touch Tool with my 2017 TB MacBook Pro and I have it set up so all the function keys are in the touch bar in their red glory along with BREAK, COPY and a bunch of loading disk commands. I'd love to add that natively to the application but we are WAY, WAY off that for now.

Maybe I could do a screencast of it. I personally think it's really cool!

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:44 pm

guddler wrote:
Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:10 pm
I'm going to say something that seems very polarising and controversial now so please don't turn this into a TouchBar flame thread!!

I just thought to mention that I use Better Touch Tool with my 2017 TB MacBook Pro and I have it set up so all the function keys are in the touch bar in their red glory along with BREAK, COPY and a bunch of loading disk commands. I'd love to add that natively to the application but we are WAY, WAY off that for now.

Maybe I could do a screencast of it. I personally think it's really cool!
Eek. I switched off all those strange things on my magic mouse (why by defualt Apple have the mouse scrolling upside down and the second mouse button switched off is beyond me, first thing I do when I use a mac is switch on second mouse button and reverse the scroll direction, but I dont have a laptop mine is an imac) , used to accidently do mad and weird things. I used magic prefs for a while which I think is similar but just use to drive me nuts. But if I dont have to have it turned on than I have no objections.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:59 pm

:lol:

No, if you don't have a Mac with a Touch Bar then you wouldn't even know it was there. Hmm, unless you installed an iPad or iPhone as a second screen with "Duet" of course as that then gives you a touch bar. Likewise, if you DO have a Touch Bar in your Mac but don't like it, then no doubt you'll have it disabled and just displaying the function keys in which case, again, you wouldn't know it was there.

Anyway, there are way more important things to worry about than that :)

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by mlouka » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:02 pm

I use a MacBook Pro as laptop and use BeebEm and B2 on it. Also use B-Em for Windows on it using WINE and under emulation but prefer the (Mac) BeebEm for its integration... Also tested the rough B-Em port. I suspect that it might be easier to improve and extend that than to rewrite the Mac-specific parts of BeebEm. Unfortunately, I don't have time to contribute at the moment, except for testing :)
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:16 pm

I have updated the list above. We will call it the potential testers list.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Kazzie » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:39 pm

I can rope in my wife's macbook if you need an extra device for testing purposes, but she's unlikely to become a regular user.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:55 pm

Update: I created a test Mojave environment last night in a VM (which is a little hacky and unofficial) and tried a new test version of BeebEm4. I wanted to see exactly what the score is with 32bit apps and security in the next version of the OS. Unfortunately the result was, I would say inconclusive and I need to do some more homework. I have a feeling that full security is not enabled in the Beta OS build that I'm using but I need to verify that before jumping to any conclusions. So still watch this space on Mojave and what problems it may bring.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by mlouka » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:15 pm

I haven't noticed any differences between High Sierra and Mojave (latest developer version running on a real Mac Mini) as far as app signing requirements go. High Sierra enforced certificates more strictly than in the past so incorrectly signed (or incorrectly bundled) code could prevent an app running at all (it was actually "better" not to sign than have incorrectly signed code). I would expect BeebEm to run on Mojave as it does under High Sierra (ie after applying some workarounds when "installing" it). Mojave still supports 32-bit apps, but Apple has confirmed that it will be the last release of macOS that does.
Last edited by mlouka on Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by mlouka » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:35 pm

Just tested on Mojave on a real Mac that has never had BeebEm on it before. It runs OK. Need to first copy the BeebEm4 app bundle to the desktop and then move it back into it's folder (just as with High Sierra), and need to right-click and select Open to get the dialog requesting permission to run (again, just like High Sierra, and only need to do this once). Simply trying to open it (first time only) gives the "Unknown Developer" message and refusal to start. So. no difference compared with High Sierra.
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:49 pm

mlouka wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:35 pm
Just tested on Mojave on a real Mac that has never had BeebEm on it before. It runs OK. Need to first copy the BeebEm4 app bundle to the desktop and then move it back into it's folder
Why does it have to be moved in that way?

:?:
Last edited by lurkio on Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:25 pm

Well, I noticed differences, but differences in the direction which makes me question if code signing restrictions are fully implemented yet in the Mojave beta. It is after all a beta at the moment. I'd have to check the build number, I'm not sure if my download was the public beta or a developer beta or if they are the same. I would think it highly irregular for Apple to relax security requirements in a later OS :lol:

Since I'm using Clover to boot a VM (on a real Mac) I need to be sure that none of the restrictions are being bypassed. I need to grab a USB drive and install it for real.

As for 32 bit. All the rumour and news sites keep saying Mojave will support 32 bit. Right now the only concrete information I can find from Apple is:
If you distribute your apps outside the Mac App Store, we highly recommend distributing 64-bit binaries to make sure your users can continue to run your apps on future versions of macOS. macOS High Sierra will be the last macOS release to support 32-bit apps without compromise
https://developer.apple.com/macos/distribution/ (bottom of page)

I can't yet find any info on what "without compromise" means. If you have a link to documentation from Apple that details that, please forward it to me but I don't think Apple have said yet?

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:26 pm

lurkio wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:49 pm

Why does it have to be moved in that way?

:?:
I guess that's just another way of removing the security restriction? It's not really of any consequence as this will all be resolved soon enough anyway.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:49 pm

guddler wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:25 pm

As for 32 bit. All the rumour and news sites keep saying Mojave will support 32 bit. Right now the only concrete information I can find from Apple is:
If you distribute your apps outside the Mac App Store, we highly recommend distributing 64-bit binaries to make sure your users can continue to run your apps on future versions of macOS. macOS High Sierra will be the last macOS release to support 32-bit apps without compromise
https://developer.apple.com/macos/distribution/ (bottom of page)

I can't yet find any info on what "without compromise" means. If you have a link to documentation from Apple that details that, please forward it to me but I don't think Apple have said yet?
With 64bit on IOS and PowePC on Mac it took a couple of major releases before the threat to remove was carried out, so I should think Mojave with be okay, there are still may applications by big corp running 32bit (Webex I noticed recently was still 32bit as recently as a few weeks ago). Might even not be the next one. Eitehr way I should think you have a good year. clock ticking ....

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by mlouka » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:05 pm

guddler wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:26 pm
lurkio wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:49 pm

Why does it have to be moved in that way?

:?:
I guess that's just another way of removing the security restriction? It's not really of any consequence as this will all be resolved soon enough anyway.
I don't think it has to do with security as you still need to give it permission to run. You can execute the binary without this "trick" but for some reason the file-assosociations don't stick, so you can't just double-click on an SSD to open it. Most likely just something wrong with the bundle that needs the extra step to force the OS to rectify it (e.g. file owner or file permissions?).
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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:22 am

Quick update - I provided a new release this evening that I believe will appear on the BeebEm for Mac web site in due course.

To be clear, this provides no new features whatsoever and doesn't increase the version number, it is simply a re-package and comes as a DMG that is downloaded, dragged to the destination of your choice and executed in the same way you would any other Mac application. Under the hood I made a few project and layout changes that I hope will at least help with moving forward even if they don't directly solve anything themselves.

There is at least one more "issue" to be tackled before much progress can be made and of course, there is still the whole 32 bit topic.

Long term I don't know how my involvement might pan out since I don't have a massive amount of Beeb knowledge but I'm still happy to carry on for now even if I just look at some of the Mac things. We'll see.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:03 am

Good job.

I wonder if doing things like the UI and frameworks, which are the biggest issues needs much beeb knowledge.

I think the main requirement/resource is time.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:57 am

guddler wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:22 am
Quick update - I provided a new release this evening that I believe will appear on the BeebEm for Mac web site in due course.
Great work! Many thanks for doing this.

=D> =D> =D>

EDIT: Because this thread hasn't linked to it yet, here's a link to the official Mac BeebEm download page, for when guddler's release eventually goes up:
:idea:
Last edited by lurkio on Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:01 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:52 pm

Unofficial download link for the time being if anyone wants it:
https://drive.guddler.uk/d/f/443181297079165026

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by g7jjf » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:46 am

I have now put guddler's DMG image on my download page.

Many thanks for all the help in getting this to work.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by Elminster » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:41 pm

Been on Mojave a week and not had any issues with software, including BeebEm. But I havent tried to reinstall it from scratch to be fair.

Infact I think Mojave has probably been easiest upgrade for sometime. But then that coudl be becuase I did a completely fresh install of High S. a couple of months ago, so not much baggage.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:08 am

I agree. Whilst it seems strange, it seems like they have gone backwards on the 32bit issue. I got no warnings at all. But I’m not installing from scratch obviously.

Meanwhile I am working towards removing the dependence’s on Carbon but I’m still at the ‘investigating what’s required’ stage so it may take a while.

Given that BeebEm Windows is written in C++ and MacOS still supports C++ I don’t agree at this point that a re-write or whatever you want to call it is the best option but I’ve not gone that deep yet and I could change my mind later.

Further updates if and when, but know it’s still being looked at.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by lurkio » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:20 pm

Just logging the fact that there seems to be an issue with the Mac BeebEm debugger where it doesn't recognise the "poke" command or its abbreviation "c":
:!:

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by guddler » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:40 pm

May as well respond since I'm online :) I'll register it in the issue tracker I've got, thanks for the report.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure where this is going right now. Personally, I've been distracted. First I got distracted by work (not much I can do about that). Then I got distracted playing Guild Wars 2. Now, in typical developer fashion, I'm distracted from GW2 by writing a 'doodah, thingymagig' for GW2 to alert me when I have new in-game stuff happening using their API (I love games that offer you that opportunity) - there is method to my madness there however as I'm writing it in all the technologies that I need for something coming up at work so I can familiarise myself beforehand.

My life is basically one big distraction :lol:

Anyway, after creating the installer package and scripts, etc. to do releases I committed some changes that add nothing or do nothing externally but shut the compiler up quite considerably which helps you to see the wood for the trees as it were. Then I started to look at the general 32bit issue and well, oh my! Not only is BeebEm for Mac using Carbon which as we know is 32bit and needs to go but it is also using some technologies that pre-date Carbon and were already deprecated by the time Carbon came along. Fair play to Apple for supporting this lot for so long is all I can really say.

So anyway, I'm adamant that it does not need to be the end of the road because there is a huge amount of shared code between BeebEm for Windows and BeebEm for Mac and BeebEm for Windows is well respected and established, BUT all the old unsupported stuff is very intertwined on the Mac side so it really is not trivial as we have already noted.

I started to look into it all but then the distractions started. Technically it is at the point now that code from the Windows version could be brought over and new features / fixes added, but it was never my intention to take over that side of things since I don't really know the emulation well enough (at all really).

At least now it is in Git with an issue tracker - but for now it is my private install of "Gitea". It's not really my call to put it on a public service like GitHub instead, that would be Jon's call. Until then, he has access and a login to my git repository and can commit / pull request at will. At some point it really wants to be somewhere public though.

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Re: BeebEm Mac - Info

Post by SpaceFlightOrange » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:15 pm

Hi.

Just thought I'd resurrect this thread as I use Beebem Mac as my emulator of choice, and have done for ages.

I'm happy to get involved. I'm an iOS developer by trade, but happy to get involved on the Mac side. I don't know how much I can offer on the Beeb side, but I'm happy to learn.

Thanks
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