MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

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MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:20 pm

Does anyone have any technical details on how Click paged it's 32K ROM and 32K RAM? From a quick look at the ROM it looks like it's in 8K chunks and maybe paged with writes to &FCFC.
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by jgharston » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:24 am

Pernod wrote:Does anyone have any technical details on how Click paged it's 32K ROM and 32K RAM? From a quick look at the ROM it looks like it's in 8K chunks and maybe paged with writes to &FCFC.
Link?

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:29 am

jgharston wrote:Link?
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=11795&p=148353#p148353

It has common code at &1f80, &3f80, &5f80, &7f80.
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by jgharston » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:43 am

Pernod wrote:
jgharston wrote:Link?
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=11795&p=148353#p148353

It has common code at &1f80, &3f80, &5f80, &7f80.
Ta. Yes, it looks like it uses &A000 as a RAM copy of the bank paging register (the equivalent of &F4), and uses &FCFC as the paging register (the equivalent of &FE30). So, presumably, it doesn't simply plug into a ROM socket, it will need to plug into somewhere else as well to get access to &FCFC. Edit: which must get cleared at RESET as only the code at the start of the image has a ROM header, so bank 0 has to be paged in at RESET for the MOS to be able to recognise it as a a sideways ROM.

It also looks like it tramples on language workspace as well, so a simple *HELP may well kill a foreground application. Edit: unless the bank swiotching only occurs when it itself is the language, then it naturally does own the language workspace and do whatever it likes with it.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:09 am

Amazing what you find when time is spent looking... The documents recently posted at viewtopic.php?f=32&t=11795&p=190983#p190983 provide the following:
The ROM/RAM page address register is Read only at &FCFC and is
defined as follows:

Bit 7
6
5
4
3 > 2 bit RAM page address m.s.
2 > " " " " l.s.
1 > 2 bit ROM page address m.s.
must be within approximately 3/4 second of each
other. This may sound complicated but is actually so easy in
practice.
The CLICK ROM is a 32K x 8 device and is mapped into the Electron
memory as 4 x 8K pages in the address range &8000 to &9FFF. In a
similar manner, the Battery backed static RAM device is mapped
into the address range &A000 to &BFFF.
And the MC146818 RTC is at:
The Calendar RAM and Registers etc are addressed by setting
firstly the Address Register at &FCF8 and then reading or writing
the data at the Data Register &FCF9.
Should have this emulated in no time.
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by daveejhitchins » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:58 am

I'm the keeper of a few Slogger 'Click' PCBs belonging to Dave (Arcadian). Maybe if someone would like to 'refurbish' one and document the procedure ???

Dave H :D
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:09 pm

I'm having to re-write the cartridge interface to support this, as the current one simply caters for 2x16K ROMs. Since a cartridge is mapped to two pages how does it know which page is being requested? From the cartridge slot pinout it looks like the ROMQA line would be used for this, correct?

If it is the ROMQA line then from the Click board traces posted by Phill it looks like this is not connected. Would that mean the Click ROM appears in both pages? Anyone have one of these to confirm behaviour?
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:13 pm

Click is now emulated...
0021.png
0022.png
0023.png
0025.png
0024.png
There's a problem with the RTC. The same MC146818 is used in the Master but the Master handles the 21st century much better, though displays 19xx but gets the days of week and month correct. Click displays rubbish for month. Need to investigate this a little.

Now that I have a well defined cartridge interface I can proceed to implement many other Electron cartridge devices. I've already done the ABR which seems to work well.

Moving onto the many disc interfaces AP3, AP4, Pegasus400, Cumana, SEDS, etc. Was the hardware in any of these the same? Why did Slogger produce the Pegasus and SEDS, any difference apart from the ROM?

Any chance of an image from a Mega Games Cartridge to play with?
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by 1024MAK » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:17 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:I'm the keeper of a few Slogger 'Click' PCBs belonging to Dave (Arcadian). Maybe if someone would like to 'refurbish' one and document the procedure ???

Dave H :D
I serviced a Slogger Click cartridge for a user a few years ago. The PCB used in that Click cartridge had a fair few differences compared to an unused Slogger 'Click' PCB that I got from Dave (Arcadian).

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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by 1024MAK » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm

Pernod wrote:Click is now emulated...
Great news =D> Thanks :D
Pernod wrote: Moving onto the many disc interfaces AP3, AP4, Pegasus400, Cumana, SEDS, etc. Was the hardware in any of these the same? Why did Slogger produce the Pegasus and SEDS, any difference apart from the ROM?
The PCB, the glue logic and the disk controller hardware of the AP3, AP4 and AP34 is the same. The difference being the position of a selection link (jumper shunt). The EPROMs fitted and whether a SRAM chip is fitted. It's not the same as the Pegasus400, but both provide similar facilities.

Here are some photos of my AP3 that I upgraded to a AP34:-
IMG_6410.JPG
AP3 (upgraded to a AP34) showing label side of case
IMG_6411.JPG
AP3 (upgraded to a AP34) component side
IMG_6412.JPG
AP3 (upgraded to a AP34) close up of ICs
IMG_6413.JPG
AP3 (upgraded to a AP34) close up of the link
Somewhere (maybe in the forum) there is information on upgrading an AP3 or a AP4 to an AP34. But I forget where #-o

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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by CMcDougall » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:48 pm

http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewto ... 83#p188207
might be this thread Mark 8)

my Peg400 : DFS &E00 (Thanks to Martin Barr =D> )
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by 1024MAK » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:07 pm

CMcDougall wrote:http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewto ... 83#p188207
might be this thread Mark 8)

my Peg400 : DFS &E00 (Thanks to Martin Barr =D> )
Thanks Colin. It was not that thread, as I converted mine some years ago. But that thread looks like it contains the information needed.

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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:10 pm

Is the 1772 standard in the Pegasus, thought it was intended to use 1770. Doesn't *FDCSTAT report 1770?

I also now see the older SEDS uses the 1793, presumably implemented in the same way as the older DDOS 3.3x on the Beeb.
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by 1024MAK » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:30 pm

Lots of information on the Pegasus in this thread. This thread may help as well.

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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by daveejhitchins » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:20 am

1024MAK wrote:I serviced a Slogger Click cartridge for a user a few years ago. The PCB used in that Click cartridge had a fair few differences compared to an unused Slogger 'Click' PCB that I got from Dave (Arcadian).
Don't suppose you noted the differences? Would the owner of the Click be willing to do some reverse engineering or allow someone else to do it? I also have a 'part-built' Click, with lots of links - Prototype, presumably!

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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by 1024MAK » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:40 am

I did take plenty of photos. I'll hunt them out.

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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:04 pm

Anyone know whether Slogger produced their own interface for SEDFS, or was it sold as a replacement ROM for the Cumana interface?
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:56 pm

Fixed the Click clock...
0036.png
and Pegasus 400 is now working.
0037.png
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Arcadian » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:08 pm

Bravo!

As for SEDFS, I can't remember if the Slogger ads listed full disk interfaces with SEDFS fitted - but anyone with some old Electron User mags to hand should be able to quickly find this out.

When I acquired the Slogger stuff in 2008, there were a bunch of cumana interfaces and boards, some of which had the SEDFS fitted (the ones in the metal cases that contained SEDFS didn't feature the big cumana sticker on the metal case - so it's possible that Slogger sourced boards and unlabelled cases direct from Cumana and re-sold them with their own SEDFS rom). I also found a couple of loose Cumana boards in amongst everything with SEDFS rom but no battery, so as the battery wasn't necessary for SEDFS I suppose it's possible that if/when Slogger supplied SEDFS interfaces they did so with no battery fitted?! This is just speculation though ...
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:19 pm

Arcadian wrote:I also found a couple of loose Cumana boards in amongst everything with SEDFS rom but no battery, so as the battery wasn't necessary for SEDFS I suppose it's possible that if/when Slogger supplied SEDFS interfaces they did so with no battery fitted?! This is just speculation though ...
The battery would be for the RTC, and since SEDFS didn't provide *DATE then no need for it.

Is there any technical info/schematic for the Cumana board anywhere?
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:33 am

Now have SEDFS and the Cumana DFS working, both use the same Cumana interface:
0060.png
Cumana
This is useless without the an image of the Cumana Utilities disc, as it contains the formatter for this unique format: 80 track 9 sectors of 512 bytes. So if anyone has it then we need to somehow get an image of it so that I can add support for the format.
0061.png
SEDFS
It's nice to see that SEDFS handles the 21st century!

I posted elsewhere that the Sound Expansion cartridges are also emulated. Are there any other cartridge devices to emulate?

I'll be moving onto 32K ROM devices next, such as PRES BASIC Editor.
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Arcadian » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:37 pm

Good work Nigel, really pleased to see both of these obscure filing systems emulated.
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:11 pm

Anyone know anything about Stop Press 64, what do I need to run it?

I'm emulating what I think is the cartridge version, the 32K ROM from the Slogger haul:
ELK_StopPress.jpg
It has 2x16K pages which are paged with a register at &FCFA (0 or 1), whereas Click uses &FCFC.
0064.png
What can I do to test further?

Edit: I see it requires the MRB, a new topic may be required. It also came with two discs, anyone have them?
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:06 pm

Since I found the Solidisk EFS ROM image...
0067.png
0068.png
0070.png
It's a 32K ROM split between both cartridge pages, one for each of DFS and ADFS. But it also has 16K SWR on-board, I have no idea how this is made accessible. Any ideas?
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Arcadian » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:45 pm

Very nice, is there a possibility of supporting an ADFS hard drive image do you think?
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:09 am

Arcadian wrote:Very nice, is there a possibility of supporting an ADFS hard drive image do you think?
For Electron or BBC? Do you have something specific to support?

I attempted adding hard drives to the M512 a few months ago but didn't get too far.
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Arcadian » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:14 am

Was thinking Solidisk ADFS Winchester hard drive emulation for the Elk (the Solidisk disk interface which contained the dual DFS/ADFS rom you've emulated also contained a 'Winchester' socket - basically a 1Mhz bus I think, that allowed you to hook up Solidisk's own Winchester drives).
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:18 am

Arcadian wrote:Was thinking Solidisk ADFS Winchester hard drive emulation for the Elk (the Solidisk disk interface which contained the dual DFS/ADFS rom you've emulated also contained a 'Winchester' socket - basically a 1Mhz bus I think, that allowed you to hook up Solidisk's own Winchester drives).
Yep, eventually. Once I get Winchesters on the BBC machines I'll add it to this too, not a priority right now though.
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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by daveejhitchins » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:05 am

Pernod wrote:But it also has 16K SWR on-board, I have no idea how this is made accessible. Any ideas?
Are you sure this isn't olverlaid to provide DFS/ADFS workspace? You could try using ADT's *MEX command.

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Re: MAME: Click (and other large ROMs)

Post by Pernod » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:16 am

daveejhitchins wrote:
Pernod wrote:But it also has 16K SWR on-board, I have no idea how this is made accessible. Any ideas?
Are you sure this isn't olverlaid to provide DFS/ADFS workspace? You could try using ADT's *MEX command.
There doesn't seem to be any space to have the RAM overlaid, and both DFS and ADFS work fine without it. There's discussion on the SWR at viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8824&p=97507#p97457 that suggests it's unreliable. Maybe is overlays either the DFS or ADFS that isn't currently in use, don't understand how though. This photo
Electron_with_MRB-Mode7-Ap1-Ap6-16kSWRAM-CSSSound-SolidiskDisk%2BWinchesterInterface_outside.JPG
confirms that both DFS and ADFS usually take a page each.
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