Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

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garfield
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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by garfield » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:05 pm

Thanks for the info and link!

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scarybeasts
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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by scarybeasts » Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:30 pm

vanekp wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:58 pm
most work well converting from FSD to hfe came across a few that it would not convert :-
VECTOR2-140.FSD BAILING: fsd file track no space for sector header and gap
STARQUAKE.FSD BAILING: fsd sectors really cannot fit
013 Winter Olympiad 88.FSD BAILING: fsd sectors really cannot fit
056 Indoor Sports.FSD BAILING: fsd sectors really cannot fit
058 BOULDER DASH.FSD BAILING: fsd sectors really cannot fit
060 SAIGON.FSD BAILING: fsd sectors really cannot fit
Thanks for continuing to give things a try Peter.
It is strange that these are failing for you. I can reproduce the VECTOR problem. A 19 sector track :D -- I will fix it.
But the others works work fine for me. If you look in the latest folder link I posted, you'll find those HFEs in the Tynesoft and Bubble Bus folders. Perhaps I have newer versions of the FSDs? For reference, sha256:
a7514a655027bb39a4310976e69d7ac787a955ef341d259ac8a27c4d55b18d98 058 BOULDER DASH.FSD
ones I converted from Kryoflux which work fin on Gotek wont work in Beebjit the come up with Disk fault 18 at 00/00
I think I know what that could be, but could you post a sample so I can make sure it's fixed properly?
Below is a list of the ones I converted and they work in beebjit and on a gotek, only revs 4 track on beebjit you can't change disc.
Is this a reference to flippy discs? It's not well documented, but you can do flippy discs in beebjit. You can associate multiple discs with a single drive like this:

beebjit -0 flippya.hfe -0 flippyb.hfe

And then Alt+0 will cycle through the disc list (plus an empty drive) at run time. Currently selected disc is printed to the console. I find it more convenient than GUI gymnastics. It's faster.


Cheers
Chris

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vanekp
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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by vanekp » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:10 am

TurboSFV (v8.21.8201) - Hash values
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Calculation date: 2020-04-18 07:41:22
File: 058 BOULDER DASH.FSD
Path: D:\bbc\beebjit_win_0.9.0\fsd\
Size: 114 KB (116.858 Bytes)
CRC-32: b55a2d67
SHA-256: d46d5a88d216d62484e617a05381ec13d303230625952df82d41233ec9177c8e
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
so mine is a different and more than lightly old version's of the fsd files (most of mine have a creation date in 2012)

Here is a sample of DrWho (also including the ROM for it), I know Kryoflux reads both sides but you cant make flippy images unless you modify the drive so I removed all the side 2 files making it a single sided image and then created the hfe file from that with HxCFloppyEmulator Ver2.2.2.1 as I said those do work find in a Gotek on my BBC

Here are a few games I came across with op code problems.
Boffin1 unimplemented:instruction:pc $24d9 opcode $03
Boffin2 unimplemented:instruction:pc $2848 opcode $03
BattleTank unimplemented:instruction:pc $34de opcode $8b
Bone_Cruncher_FSD0433_1.hfe unimplemented:instruction:pc $6972 opcode $33

And these would not load or run.
Frak! sits on searching after Frak2 Wait a mo .... Searching
MatchDay(Ocean) Hangs as the match is going to start

only other problem I have run into in the emulator is when using the fast load for tapes the buffer gets filled with CR and causes problems with some titles like TimeTraveller(SulisSoftware).uef as it puts things in the buffer to load the next part, if you press enter very briefly you can get around this.
Attachments
DrWhoS04080T.rar
(129.91 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
Peter.

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danielj
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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by danielj » Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:56 am

If HFE doesn't work from a kryoflux dump, try exporting an HFEv3. If there's an unformatted region, you may need to mark that up manually (I did manage this once, it was a bit of a pain to do and I can't remember off the top of my head exactly how I did it, but it did work).

d.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by vanekp » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:46 am

danielj wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:56 am
If HFE doesn't work from a kryoflux dump, try exporting an HFEv3. If there's an unformatted region, you may need to mark that up manually (I did manage this once, it was a bit of a pain to do and I can't remember off the top of my head exactly how I did it, but it did work).

d.
seems beebjit does not like HFEv3 file format : BAILING: HFE v3 unknown opcode F3
maybe that to do with what you say marking up formatted region's.
Peter.

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danielj
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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by danielj » Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:58 am

Beebjit I have no idea, I'm talking about things working on flashfloppy gotek with a real beeb/master?

d.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by vanekp » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:25 am

danielj wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:58 am
Beebjit I have no idea, I'm talking about things working on flashfloppy gotek with a real beeb/master?

d.
oh the images work fine on gotek on my BBC just not in the beebjit emulator.
Peter.

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danielj
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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by danielj » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:30 am

OK. That's getting confusing then. :) Perhaps we need a spreadsheet (Google sheets?) file, working real beeb, working emulator columns. It's very hard to keep track in a forum thread!

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by scarybeasts » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:14 am

vanekp wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:46 am
seems beebjit does not like HFEv3 file format : BAILING: HFE v3 unknown opcode F3
maybe that to do with what you say marking up formatted region's.
beebjit can handle most HFEv3 files; those are what it generates.
Unformatted regions are handled by beebjit (needed for lots of Sherston titles), that's RAND_OPCODE aka. 0xF4.

0xF3 is SKIPBITS_OPCODE, never seen one of those before. If you can attach the sample file I can try and get that dealt with!


Cheers
Chris

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by scarybeasts » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:18 am

scarybeasts wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:57 am
Thanks for the encouragement, Daniel and Rich!

I converted a bunch more. Here's the top level directory, with publisher names for the subdirectories:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... zDoG3Bdyky
And now there's another huge drop, same location, including:

- Acornsoft
- Audiogenic (some of these are pretty good, I never saw them back in the day)
- Level9 + Robico for you adventure fans!
- The Fourth Dimension
NOTE! E-Type doesn't seem to work for me, crazy DFS errors. May need a 1770 controller? Anyone has a 1770 based machine to try this in a Gotek?
- US Gold
- Mirrorsoft
- And a few more


Cheers
Chris

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vanekp
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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by vanekp » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:56 pm

scarybeasts wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:14 am
vanekp wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:46 am
seems beebjit does not like HFEv3 file format : BAILING: HFE v3 unknown opcode F3
maybe that to do with what you say marking up formatted region's.
beebjit can handle most HFEv3 files; those are what it generates.
Unformatted regions are handled by beebjit (needed for lots of Sherston titles), that's RAND_OPCODE aka. 0xF4.

0xF3 is SKIPBITS_OPCODE, never seen one of those before. If you can attach the sample file I can try and get that dealt with!


Cheers
Chris
Attached the hfeV3 file of DrWho which was created from my Kryoflux image just writen out to v3 format.
Attachments
DrWho(hfeV3).rar
(205.62 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
Peter.

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CMcDougall
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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by CMcDougall » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:26 pm

"only revs 4 track on beebjit you can't change disc.
Is this a reference to flippy discs? It's not well documented, "

Its not a 'flippy', I would presume the same as tape version, load newer tracks from 4track tape, then have to put original normal Revs tape in to load main part (sort of stream loader)
So would say disc drive0 needs to change between 4Track disc first then to original Revs disc.
ImageImageImage

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vanekp
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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by vanekp » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:56 pm

CMcDougall wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:26 pm
"only revs 4 track on beebjit you can't change disc.
Is this a reference to flippy discs? It's not well documented, "

Its not a 'flippy', I would presume the same as tape version, load newer tracks from 4track tape, then have to put original normal Revs tape in to load main part (sort of stream loader)
So would say disc drive0 needs to change between 4Track disc first then to original Revs disc.
if you run it with beebjit -0 "031 REVS 4 TRACKS.FSD.hfe" -0 "030 REVS.FSD.hfe" you can then swap disc's by pressing Atl+0 when required.
but don't think its possible to change tape at ALT+0 is only to swap disk.
Peter.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by billcarr2005 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:26 pm

scarybeasts wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:18 am
- The Fourth Dimension
NOTE! E-Type doesn't seem to work for me, crazy DFS errors. May need a 1770 controller? Anyone has a 1770 based machine to try this in a Gotek?
The SSD fails too, on DFS 0.90 and DFS 1.20
On Watford DFS 1.30 it "Channels" from !BOOT, but CHAIN"E_TYPE" works fine
My guess is that it wasn't play tested on enough different systems!
I've only got 1 copy of that, so don't know if it was ever bugfixed :(

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by scarybeasts » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:24 pm

billcarr2005 wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:26 pm
scarybeasts wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:18 am
- The Fourth Dimension
NOTE! E-Type doesn't seem to work for me, crazy DFS errors. May need a 1770 controller? Anyone has a 1770 based machine to try this in a Gotek?
The SSD fails too, on DFS 0.90 and DFS 1.20
On Watford DFS 1.30 it "Channels" from !BOOT, but CHAIN"E_TYPE" works fine
My guess is that it wasn't play tested on enough different systems!
I've only got 1 copy of that, so don't know if it was ever bugfixed :(
Yeah, the same steps (well, I found Watford DFS 1.44 first) work under emulation in beebjit -- nice sleuthing!

These quirks are part of the charm of original unhacked discs :)


Cheers
Chris

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by scarybeasts » Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:14 am

vanekp wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:10 am
Here are a few games I came across with op code problems.
Boffin1 unimplemented:instruction:pc $24d9 opcode $03
Boffin2 unimplemented:instruction:pc $2848 opcode $03
BattleTank unimplemented:instruction:pc $34de opcode $8b
Bone_Cruncher_FSD0433_1.hfe unimplemented:instruction:pc $6972 opcode $33

And these would not load or run.
Frak! sits on searching after Frak2 Wait a mo .... Searching
MatchDay(Ocean) Hangs as the match is going to start
I also noticed Bone Cruncher when trying to play the HFE. It's fixed. I also found opcode issues loading HFEs in Joey and Wizzys Mansion.

I can reproduce the BattleTank opcode. It's using XAA which is a bit unusual because it's not even guaranteed to be stable! http://visual6502.org/wiki/index.php?ti ... AA,_ANE%29 for the curious.
I'll fix it and get another build out with the the fixes. (I also fixed the VECTOR2 FSD issue.)

I can't reproduce any problems with the Boffins. Can you post the images, or provide a link to where you got them from?
only other problem I have run into in the emulator is when using the fast load for tapes the buffer gets filled with CR and causes problems with some titles like TimeTraveller(SulisSoftware).uef as it puts things in the buffer to load the next part, if you press enter very briefly you can get around this.
Heh. That's an unintended consequence. I'll look at something like not engaging turbo mode until all keys are released.


Cheers
Chris

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danielj
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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by danielj » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:00 pm

scarybeasts wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:24 pm

Yeah, the same steps (well, I found Watford DFS 1.44 first) work under emulation in beebjit -- nice sleuthing!

These quirks are part of the charm of original unhacked discs :)
Works perfectly on a Master with 1770 :)

d.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by Diminished » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:42 am

scarybeasts wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:34 pm
I looked at this (in beebjit). Looks like Citadel will fail if the disc is writable. So set the readonly attribute on the Citadel HFEs on the USB stick and it should work. I'd re-copy them to be safe because Citadel may have trashed itself?? Is this some copy protection craziness?

Here's Citadel working:

info:disc:8271: command $29 sel $40 params $0 $0 $28 $0 $0 ptrk 9 hpos 2491
info:disc:8271: status $18 result $0
info:disc:8271: command $1f sel $40 params $0 $8 $22 $0 $0 ptrk 0 hpos 3066
info:disc:8271: status $18 result $0
info:disc:8271: command $b sel $40 params $0 $0 $22 $0 $0 ptrk 0 hpos 3069
info:disc:8271: status $18 result $12

The last disc command, $b, is attempting to write to track 0??? It gets $12 (disc is write protected error), tries a few more times, and the game starts.
I think we found this when we were poking around in the loader.

viewtopic.php?p=191149#p191149

There was some self-modification in which an OSFILE &FF got changed to an OSFILE &04, and the would-be cracker was presumably supposed not to notice. I guess the thinking was that if you were transferring to disc, you would have the disc non-write-protected? I think we concluded that it was indeed a weak protection technique. (Having said that, it seems it's still providing some resistance against copying today ...)

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by danielj » Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:36 pm

Just to note, the latest Greaseweazle release will read/write HFEv2 files directly: https://github.com/keirf/Greaseweazle/r ... /tag/v0.13

This allows direct dumps of pretty much everything (apart from that which requires the unformatted regions) to be made with a greaseweazle :)

d.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by Jeff_HxC2001 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:24 am

scarybeasts wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:58 pm
Hi,

Working with @billcarr2005, I'm starting to convert his large library of FSD protected beeb disc files to HFE files.

Why HFE?
1) HFEv3 files are capable of accurately representing all currently-known copy protection methods used on the beeb.
I have designed the HFE (v1/v2/v3) for the HxC Floppy Emulators (SD HxC and the Gotek HxC Firmware), not for the preservation.

This format only store an approximation of the disk content to deal with the current floppy emulators hardware. So "accurately" is not the right term about the HFE format.

I have designed some others formats to deal with preservation ("stream hfe"), especially for the "Pauline" project :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZiyms6lo4U
scarybeasts wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:58 pm
3) You can copy HFEs directly to your Gotek + FlashFloppy and they will work when loaded on a real beeb.
If you want the full support/all the opcodes supported, i recommend the original HxC Firmware for Gotek.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by scarybeasts » Tue May 19, 2020 9:45 am

Jeff_HxC2001 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:24 am
scarybeasts wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:58 pm
Hi,

Working with @billcarr2005, I'm starting to convert his large library of FSD protected beeb disc files to HFE files.

Why HFE?
1) HFEv3 files are capable of accurately representing all currently-known copy protection methods used on the beeb.
I have designed the HFE (v1/v2/v3) for the HxC Floppy Emulators (SD HxC and the Gotek HxC Firmware), not for the preservation.

This format only store an approximation of the disk content to deal with the current floppy emulators hardware. So "accurately" is not the right term about the HFE format.
Do you have any further thoughts here, specifically if we pin the considerations to BBC discs? BBC discs are very unexotic compared to other copy protections of the era.


Cheers
Chris

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by Jeff_HxC2001 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:50 am

scarybeasts wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:45 am

Do you have any further thoughts here, specifically if we pin the considerations to BBC discs? BBC discs are very unexotic compared to other copy protections of the era.


Cheers
Chris
The bitrate and the weakbits areas are "rounded"/filtered.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by vanekp » Thu May 21, 2020 8:12 pm

By_Fair_Means_Or_Foul_Disc_1b_FSD0390_1.hfe when mounted has a title but no files (1a is fine)

Edit: I think its hidden data on the disk so it looks empty but is not, my bad :wink:
Peter.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by scarybeasts » Fri May 22, 2020 3:14 am

vanekp wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:56 pm
Attached the hfeV3 file of DrWho which was created from my Kryoflux image just writen out to v3 format.
Thanks for that! It's a great / tricky test case for HFE loading.

I have it parsing in beebjit but it gives CRC error $0E for 00/02. The catalog loads but !BOOT appears corrupt. It could be a problem my end, but loading the file via FlashFloppy on a real beeb behaves the same.

Do you have any other Kryoflux -> HFEv3 conversions I can try?


Cheers
Chris

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by vanekp » Fri May 22, 2020 7:55 am

actually the ones I had exported where exported to the default hfe format "HFE file (SDCard HxC Floppy Emulator file format) (*.hf)" which work fine on my gotek floppy emulator.

here are the other hfe results converting with "HxCFloppyEmulator v2.2.2.1" to "HFE file (Rev 3 - Experimental) (*.hfe)"

D:\bbc\beebjit>beebjit -0 BoneCruncher(80T)(hfeRev3).hfe
BAILING: HFE v3 SETBITRATE not 250kbit: 73

D:\bbc\beebjit>beebjit -0 DiscExecutor(40T)(hfeRev3).hfe
BAILING: HFE v3 unknown opcode F3

D:\bbc\beebjit>beebjit -0 DrWho(hfeRev3).hfe
BAILING: HFE v3 unknown opcode F3

D:\bbc\beebjit>beebjit -0 Repton3(80T)(hfeRev3).hfe
BAILING: hfe encoding not ISOIBM_FM_ENCODING

D:\bbc\beebjit>beebjit -0 ReptonAroundTheWorldIn40Screens(80T)(hfeRev3).hfe
BAILING: HFE v3 unknown opcode F3

attached are the hfe file (I also have the 40 track version of the above)

I cant attach the Kryoflux rar with raw files (too big) but if you are interested I can send them to you via a different means.
Attachments
DrWho(4080T)(hfeRev3).rar
(205.64 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
ReptonAroundTheWorldIn40Screens(80T)(hfeRev3).rar
(209.65 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
Repton3(80T)(hfeRev3).rar
(386.01 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
DiscExecutor(40T)(hfeRev3).rar
(499.39 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
BoneCruncher(80T)(hfeRev3).rar
(217.64 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
Peter.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by scarybeasts » Fri May 22, 2020 8:52 am

vanekp wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 7:55 am
actually the ones I had exported where exported to the default hfe format "HFE file (SDCard HxC Floppy Emulator file format) (*.hf)" which work fine on my gotek floppy emulator.

here are the other hfe results converting with "HxCFloppyEmulator v2.2.2.1" to "HFE file (Rev 3 - Experimental) (*.hfe)"
Thanks. I had to relax a few sanity checks but as of latest master, beebjit will at least attempt to read these discs :)

The two Reptons seem to play ok. So I played some Repton 3 of course.

Bone Cruncher starts to load but gives a CRC error on the loading screen.
DiscExecutor gives error $08 in beebjit. It also fails to load on my Gotek+FF but in a different way.

I had a quick look at the failure cases and the "random" opcode has been emitted from time to time. This suggests that the Kryoflux did not get a stable read? Anyway, given that the ones that give errors do so in both beebjit and a Gotek+FF, I'm going to guess that the beebjit loader is ok for now.


Cheers
Chris

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by vanekp » Fri May 22, 2020 4:32 pm

The Bonecruncher disc does not look great if I look at the physical surface, I was able to copy it with Vector2 without a problem and the resulting disk layout's look quite different between the original and the copied for comparison, also the original shows 17 bad sectors (1st pic).
BoneCruncher80T.png
BoneCruncher(80T)(Copy).png
Peter.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by vanekp » Wed May 27, 2020 4:55 pm

I have build a Greaseweazle it appears to read disc's only i cant read them in beebjit get disc fault 0E at 00/00.
if I write a .hfe file to a disk and use it on a read BBC it appears to work fine but reading is giving problems.
I am using Greaseweazle v0.17 on Windows 10 computer the read process appears to go smoothly I can look at the images with HxCFloppyEmulator and there I see what looks like valid data. I also can't read the images on gotek on real hardware.
so not sure where its going wrong, anyone any ideas ?
Peter.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by danielj » Wed May 27, 2020 6:10 pm

How are you creating the HFEs? Directly with greaseweazle? If so raise a ticket on the greaseweazle github and you'll get support there if it's a problem with greaseweazle. I've not tried direct to HFE, I usually create an SCP as an initial dump, then use the HxC software to convert it to HFE. If it's not protected I either use that or Disk Utilities to convert it directly to SSD/DSD.

d.

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Re: Starting an archive of HFE protected disc files

Post by vanekp » Wed May 27, 2020 6:26 pm

yes using GW from DOS-window (gw read --single-sided test.hfe) window to create .hfe files according to https://github.com/keirf/Greaseweazle/wiki/Read-Write and though everyone created direct to .hfe as it says it supports it.
will have to try .spc see if that works then, odd that writing seems to work fine with .hfe (not ver3) files.
Thanks for your input.
Peter.

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