Another co-pro design

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BigEd
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Another co-pro design

Post by BigEd » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:03 pm

Over on the BBC-Micro mailing list, John K has pre-announced an internal co-pro board for a Master. It has a 14MHz 65C02 on it, 64k RAM, and an Altera CPLD for the Tube, glue and ROM. It can be clocked at various speeds including overclocking at 16MHz.

For a (big) picture, see
https://archive.is/OWeSo/0bf57887163eb6 ... b80129.jpg

You can pick up the conversation at
http://lists.cloud9.co.uk/pipermail/bbc ... 11849.html
where John says he intends to sell these at about £30.

station240
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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by station240 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:10 pm

Ah it's all surface mount, even the 65c02. Still he is soldering it all for the price.

firthmj
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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by firthmj » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:50 pm

Would it be churlish to suggest that people should read the entire mailing list thread to find John's view of this site and its members before ordering?

Hopefully this suggestion isn't inflammatory!

Regards

Michael
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BigEd
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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by BigEd » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:01 pm

Well, personally, I'd rather concentrate on the merits of the design than on John's opinions of other people. For me the main negative of his projects is that he doesn't indulge in open source licensing, but I have no issue with his technical choices or execution.

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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by TopBanana » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:14 pm

firthmj wrote:Would it be churlish to suggest that people should read the entire mailing list thread to find John's view of this site and its members before ordering?

Hopefully this suggestion isn't inflammatory!

Regards

Michael
And with comments like this he's hardly likely to change his mind.

Personally I've always found John helpful and polite.

Nothing like a bit of balance ..... :D

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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by flynnjs » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:40 pm

I think it's a good looking piece of kit and should do what it says on the tin.
Well done to John for putting the effort in.

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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by RobC » Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:59 pm

flynnjs wrote:I think it's a good looking piece of kit and should do what it says on the tin.
Well done to John for putting the effort in.
Indeed - I'll certainly be looking to buy one.

Don't know the background to his issues with this site but I've always found him to be very helpful and am very pleased with the stuff I've bought from him.

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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by s1paulr » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:47 am

Agree 100%. John's design and execution is excellent and he is responsive and helpful with any queries.

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Samwise
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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by Samwise » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:57 pm

firthmj wrote:Would it be churlish to suggest that people should read the entire mailing list thread to find John's view of this site and its members before ordering?

Hopefully this suggestion isn't inflammatory!
It would be a bit churlish. ;)

His projects should stand on their own merits, and I'm sure he'd be able to help anyone who orders them. He's just chosen not to support them here on the forums, which is fair enough.

I expect this topic will evolve into being about the requirements / specs / capabililities of this co-pro, and experiences of it, if someone gets one.

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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by richardtoohey » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:26 am

Looks like it is now available:

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/J.Kortink ... /index.htm

And also on eBay:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/65C02-Coproce ... 1637034677

Lots of new stuff to play with from some clever people. :D

Not that I need anything more, of course! :oops: [-X

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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by RobC » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:04 am

Got mine on Saturday and it's now fitted and working in my Domesday machine.

It is a very neat little board.

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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by TheCorfiot » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:11 am

Just bought mine :)

Replace my original ageing 65c102 copro

:)

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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by tom_seddon » Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:16 am

I've got one too. It arrived a couple of weeks ago but I've not had a chance to use it until the last couple of days. My main speed test has been building the Elite code from Ian Bell's Elite page, a task that is mainly computation but also includes a few disk accesses. 16MHz makes things a lot quicker:

4MHz - 1'15" (1x)
8MHz - 42" (1.78x)
16MHz - 25" (3x)

Installation was very easy, and overall it does exactly what you'd expect: be a (very fast) 6502 coprocessor that doesn't take up any desk space on your desk.

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TheCorfiot
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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by TheCorfiot » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:18 am

Mine arrived today and I must say a beautiful piece of kit.
Sporting a real high speed 65C02 helps too.

Highly recommended chaps.

:)

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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by dixiestoat » Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:10 pm

I have had one too :D
Does this mean we've now all got Master Turbos, or does that name just apply to the original Acorn internal one? :D
If in doubt, CTRL-BREAK thou should clout..

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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by paulv » Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:18 pm

Mine arrived yesterday also. In terms of the spec. of the new copro, I believe they will indeed become "Master Turbo" equivalents, but I'd hesitate to call my Master a Turbo I think.

My entire collection is still in storage so I have the co-pro but no Master to fit it to for the moment :( The decorators are moving in next week to start repairing the damage done by having a full house rewire :roll:

Once they're done, I'll have a full room all to myself for the collection so I should be able to start fitting all the bits and pieces I've been buying over the last few months and contributing to *. a bit more in the coming weeks/months :D

Paul

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sweh
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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by sweh » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:31 pm

Mine arrived today, after some faffing around with the US Post Service (who claimed to have tried to deliver it 2 weeks ago, but never left a note).

First one plugged in and worked pretty much "out of box". Tube Elite works just fine :-)

(Huh, didn't realise 3.20 didn't auto-relocate BASIC, but 3.50 does).

The second and third have to await machine surgery (one is a PSU transplant to the other, which still doesn't power up). Once I have them up then I think one of them will get the CF drives attached and become an Econet fileserver.
Rgds
Stephen

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TheCorfiot
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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by TheCorfiot » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:28 am

Stephen

if you are using mos3.5 with the copro, could you pls check the following.

Pressing just break drops you into command prompt although Basic is printed above it.

Typing *Basic will invoke basic but only at &8000 not relocated.

Basic only seems to relocate with Ctrl Break.

I believe the behaviour is the same even with the original copro

Thx
:)

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sweh
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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by sweh » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:03 am

Interesting, yes.

1) On powerup HIMEM=&B800
2) Press BREAK and end up at the * MOS prompt
3) *BASIC and HIMEM=&8000
4) Press BREAK and properly in BASIC with HIMEM=&8000

So it seems on a soft-break it tries to run from &8000; it only relocates and tries to run from &B800 on a hard break. After running *BASIC then the code has been copied to &8000 and so soft-break works.

(This explains the MOS prompt at step 2; there was nothing working at &8000 at that point 'cos it'd been relocated.)
Rgds
Stephen

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sweh
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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by sweh » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:29 pm

Silly little speed test...
speed.jpg
(aww.. no 32x speed)

Funny the different OS versions as well; at speed 16:
OS3.50 = 52
OS3.20 = 53
OS1.20 = 62

These values were consistent over multiple runs. OS3.50 just slightly faster than OS3.20 :-)
Rgds
Stephen

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BigEd
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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by BigEd » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:33 pm

Do the different versions of OS also mean different versions of BASIC?

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sweh
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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by sweh » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:18 pm

OS3.20 and OS3.50 were both BASIC IV; OS1.20 was BASIC II. That's why it was so much slower :-)
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Another co-pro design

Post by firthmj » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:45 pm

sweh wrote:OS3.20 and OS3.50 were both BASIC IV; OS1.20 was BASIC II. That's why it was so much slower :-)
Not all BASIC IVs are equal though. Sophie Wilson kept refining things, in particular the floating point maths routines, so the original BASIC IV (from OS 3.20 in 1986) is noticably slower than the last (?) BASIC IV, 4r32, which was released with OS3.50 in 1988. There were also interim versions - I've seen comments elsewhere that there were two versions released for the Master Compact in between these two points, and they also behave differently from each other.

Might be an interesting exercise to gather together as many BBC Basic versions as can be found and run the same programs on all of them on the same CPU, to see how they compare.

Ideally most of the reasonably complex instructions would be covered, as there would have been a lot more scope for improvement in something like SIN(x) than PRINT

Regards

Michael
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