EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4944
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by MartinB » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:04 pm

So are you still having problems Duncan?

The 'Bad Syntax' is my message from EELOAD (and EEPxx) and it means just that - wrong (non-hex) number digits, extra digits, extra spaces etc. but there isn't really much to get wrong.

Anyway, if you're still struggling, as much detail as possible please.... :)

User avatar
DutchAcorn
Posts: 1890
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:56 am
Location: Maarn, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by DutchAcorn » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:25 pm

KenLowe wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:16 pm
... One thing I have noticed on the BBC+, and never picked up before, is that ROM bank E seems to be unavailable due to the way the OS & Basic are combined into a single ROM :(
Sorry for the late reply, but there is a way to use bank E on a B+, see this post.
Paul

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by Elminster » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:59 pm

MartinB wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:04 pm
So are you still having problems Duncan?

The 'Bad Syntax' is my message from EELOAD (and EEPxx) and it means just that - wrong (non-hex) number digits, extra digits, extra spaces etc. but there isn't really much to get wrong.

Anyway, if you're still struggling, as much detail as possible please.... :)
Yes. Electron working fine with utils. But Same download of utils in master not working. I suspect the cartridge, as I watch your little video and you don’t do anything different on command line to me. I get all sort of errors and warnings, except when write protected it tells me it is a Rom.

Will double check wiring, then hit with hammer

Edit: utils running off of gosdc, might try running them of gotek to see if any different behaviour.
Last edited by Elminster on Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4944
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by MartinB » Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:09 pm

This is only off the top of my head but you saw that I had a Master re-think at some point and revised the hardware details such that the eeprom had to be in a cartridge and not in an internal socket. You possibly know this but just thought I'd mention it - other than that though, it deffo works on a Master with the all-machine V4 utils.

The Master cartridge details are here - again, I think you might know this but I like upping my edit count for those people who voted to see this detail.... :D
Last edited by MartinB on Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by Elminster » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:08 pm

Yep cartridge, if you go back a screen you can see picture of what we were going to do.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7393&start=330#p204456

I sacrificed a cartridge where the second Rom slot was busted, but the one I used was working.

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4944
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by MartinB » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:22 pm

Ah yes, I remember now :idea:

...and Stewie66 had his working ok so there's nothing I can offer other than to pass you the hammer.

(That edit footer looks really crap on a short post.... :roll: :-x )
Last edited by MartinB on Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
1024MAK
Posts: 7869
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:46 pm
Location: Looking forward to summer in Somerset, UK...
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by 1024MAK » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:17 pm

Huh?
Last edited by 1024MAK on Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:19 pm, edited 12 times in total.
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 4421
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by daveejhitchins » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:40 pm

Elminster wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:06 pm
Always get either bad syntax or EEPROM is locked. Must be missing a trick here.
Download the New Plus 1 Support ROM and use the commands in there. All the commands are described in the AP6 User Guide.

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ARA III, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4944
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by MartinB » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:51 pm

Duncan has the Electron side of things working ok now, the remaining problem is that his modified Master cartridge isn’t behaving (in a Master).
Last edited by MartinB on Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 4421
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by daveejhitchins » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:57 pm

Ah! Yes, I've just caught-up with the thread . . .

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ARA III, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by Elminster » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:31 pm

Yes I have either wired it up wrong, or the original half-workingness of the cart (which is why I chose it) is playing havoc. Not much on them to go wrong so hopefully fixable. Might go quiet for a while though, got quite a lot of stuff working this week, running out of my allowed hobby time allowance for the year.

Thanks anyway for just confirming I haven’t missed any steps.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by Elminster » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:41 am

Or possibly chopping D0 track in half with a soldering iron when removing the unrequired (and not working) ROM socket might have something to do with it. There is no direct connection to D0 from the remaining socket, it links to the removed socket, and therefore it is floating now. Should be fixable with a flywire.
Last edited by Elminster on Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by Elminster » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:08 pm

Now this looks better on the Master
EELOAD_Master.jpg
And here is my lovely moded card
IMG_3917.jpg
And here is the slight fix I had to make to it after a little 'nick' with the soldering iron wiped out 3 tracks, which just happened to be D0-D2.
IMG_3918.jpg
The SPROW cart has no protection for the tracks so pretty easy to damage them, that is my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

Have now 'burnt' latest videonula rom into it and seems okay.

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4944
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by MartinB » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:13 pm

Nice one Duncan.... =D> 8)

User avatar
KenLowe
Posts: 365
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by KenLowe » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:20 pm

With Martins permission, I've updated EEP16 & EEP32 from V4.2A to V4.2B with the following 2 changes:
  1. Fix corruption that occurs on some EEPROMs when applying soft lock.
  2. Provide support for AT29C256 Flash memory.
Discussion about the issues that led to these changes can be found in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15789

Instructions for use remain unchanged, and can be found earlier in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7393&start=330#p204290

Please report back any issue to me, and I'll see what I can do to fix them.
Attachments
EEPxxV42B.ssd
(200 KiB) Downloaded 2 times

User avatar
guddler
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:43 am
Location: W.Somerset
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by guddler » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:08 am

All the pictures in this thread seem to be aftermarket Master ROM carts. Is there any difference in the implementation for a genuine Acorn cart?

I tried to put an EEPROM in one of my Acorn carts last night and try as I might I could not get the Master (128) to recognise the cart at all. The cart is known working with plain EPROMS, as are both of the cart sockets. I connected AA14 direct to pin 1 of the 28C256 from pin A16 of the cart having left pin 1 out of the socket. I then followed the traces and found a convenient place to cut pin 2 from the LS139 and then tied pin 2 to pin 1 (GND). Pin 22 of the EEPROM is in the socket as normal, as is pin 27 for the moment because I don't have any suitable switches.

I'm assuming that not having a write protect switch could cause the cart to get corrupted but should otherwise work? Yes?

The AT28C256 is one of the ones identified as being potentially iffy but it can be programmed fine in my programmer. If I try to use EELOAD I will either be told its a ROM or that it's locked. EEP32 doesn't seem to have any effect. The kicker however is if I program, for example EXMON into the lower half of the ROM manually with my programmer the system doesn't see it. So I'm not convinced yet about the hardware side of things.

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 4421
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by daveejhitchins » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:27 am

Which cartridge PCB have you modified? Is it the one described by MartinB here? Or another?

I've done the above mod. without any issues!

Would you like to try some known good boards? I could send an ABR, ARA III and one of the above linked boards. It might eliminate things.

Have you tried Ken's V42B EEP32. I've just been testing. Works on the Master but not on the Electron :? Just about to post the results.

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ARA III, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
guddler
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:43 am
Location: W.Somerset
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by guddler » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:16 am

I guess it would have been useful to make it clear which board I was using of course :)

This one:
https://www.beebmaster.co.uk/8bitadd/Ac ... ridge.html

Based on the fact that I hadn't seen any issues with your ARAIII and Ken's updated tools I was indeed using them. As per my other thread about the links, it is possible (really not sure at this point) that link 12 may have been set to CSYNC not GND. The consequences of this are that IF (big IF) the tools are using pin 10 of the cart to detect Master vs. Electron then that may have been introducing problems by thinking the cart was in an Electron? I'm pretty sure I tried both settings however.

[EDIT] Ignore all that about the CSYNC link - that pin isn't connected on these carts so it can't be being used. If it is, it's not going to work too well!

I should probably also detail my setup in case there is anything there?

RetroClinic Dual MOS - usually set to 3.5
RetroClinic RAM FS slot 8
Built-in RAM in 4/5/6/7
ADFS but page is E00 - don't know enough about how that is working to know why it's very low? Shadow RAM? ADFS because I use CF HDD

What I want to achieve is to add UPURS so I can upload files (ROM files and normal files) with non volatile in some form in as many banks as possible, but I read that SRAM is required for Elite CoPro in slot 6/7, so maybe not everywhere. Not like I play that mind.

As for trying other boards, if you think it will be of benefit, then I'm game as long as there's no danger of them getting damaged?

I have even considered trading in this setup for a BBC B setup which in theory is "more standard" and better supported but the problem there is the Datacentre, the internal Co-Pro and the 128K memory.
Last edited by guddler on Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4944
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by MartinB » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:47 am

In the cartridge-mod that Dave just linked to, the schematic I show and work to is for the Acorn cartridge of the type you point to on Beebmaster's site. The physical example I show in the photos isn't a cream Acorn one but it does conform to that Acorn schematic and hence, the mod I describe will work with both types of cartridge.

Importantly, with that Acorn cartridge, take note of the obsevation I made when doing the mod for an Electron, initially testing with a 62256 but leading to an AT28C256.......
I wrote:The only snag was that the cart ties pin 1 of both sockets high (Vpp on the designed-for 27128 chips) by hard-tracking the socket pin 1 positions to the +5v rail and it's been done so comprehensively on this particular cart PCB design that it was just impossible to isolate socket pin 1 leaving me no other choice than to lift pin 1 of the 62556 and add an external wire to pick up ROMQA.

User avatar
guddler
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:43 am
Location: W.Somerset
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by guddler » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:07 pm

Yep, just looked at the cart schematics again. I have pin 1 of the EEPROM lifted out of the socket and connected to pin A16 of the cart (AA14) and that signal isolated from the 139. So assuming ROMQA = AA14 then circuit-wise I'm good and have no idea what's going on. Pretty sure it's cart related and not chip related because I'm pretty sure that I put the known good EEPROM in this cart and it made no difference. I tried so much though that I can't be 100% on that.

I'll double and triple check my cart later in the week. I think I need to clear my head from it for 24h :lol:

[EDIT] Looking at it, there's something very simple that I can check and that is that the /CE on pin 20 is definitely low. Not much is going to happen if I've not done that correctly - and that's how it's behaving.
Last edited by guddler on Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4944
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by MartinB » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:49 pm

guddler wrote:I have pin 1 of the EEPROM lifted out of the socket and connected to pin A16 of the cart (AA14) and that signal isolated from the 139.

Did you connect pin 2 of the 139 to ground too?

Capture.JPG
Last edited by MartinB on Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
guddler
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:43 am
Location: W.Somerset
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by guddler » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:37 pm

I did, yes. Also checked when I got home today with a meter. Everything looks OK to me.

I'm going to fit a jumper in place of a switch and re-check everything now. If it's still a no-go then will put it aside for a night or two. Build a SCART lead, hopefully a UPURS cable and maybe even do a bit of work on BeebEm (Mac).

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4944
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by MartinB » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:11 pm

If you're keen on having UPURS, I could probably manage to find some bandwidth to build you a cable but I'd have to charge a few quid for the parts and time - certainly less than a tenner, but more than it would cost you to do it yourself! :wink:

(I'd rather do that than lose a new user if you were to decide you haven't got the energy to make it yourself.... 8) )

User avatar
guddler
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:43 am
Location: W.Somerset
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by guddler » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:13 pm

Don't worry - while I will let you know if I need to take you up on that, frankly it will be a welcome distraction from this if this doesn't work in the next 30 minutes :lol:

I have all the parts now. I was missing the 20 way connectors, kept putting off ordering some because of all the long shipping dates (who thought free 2nd class post was such a great idea?) and in the end realised I'd have had them long ago if only I'd ordered them and did so. I've got everything else. Well, there's always one exception and that is that my USB2Serial is a prolific 2303 variant and I think I recall reading that you recommend the FTDI one? (All from memory so apologies if that's incorrect). The prolific has worked very well for me on the Mac with every other project I've used it for so providing I can find it, I figured I'd start there.
Last edited by guddler on Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4944
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by MartinB » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:25 pm

No worries at all, I would have been forcing the time but prepared to do it in support of the cause.... :wink:
guddler wrote:Well, there's always one exception and that is that my USB2Serial is a prolific 2303 variant and I think I recall reading that you recommend the FTDI one? (All from memory so apologies if that's incorrect). The prolific has worked very well for me on the Mac with every other project I've used it for so providing I can find it, I figured I'd start there.
Hmmmm...... [me makes hissing noise through teeth] - people say that but most modern 'projects' are usually process-fast enough at both ends not to place much demand on the adequacy of CTS and RTS whereas with UPURS, the implementation integrity of the latter is crucial. Based on my extensive testing, I shall therefore be sceptical until (if) you find otherwise.... [-(

User avatar
guddler
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:43 am
Location: W.Somerset
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by guddler » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:29 pm

No problem - I consider myself forewarned. At least if it doesn't work I know not to spend too long on it until I have bought a proven USB serial converter.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by Elminster » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:31 pm

I am afraid to say I side with Martin.

I have a prolific on my mac that works fine for most things but doesnt work well for UPURS, I did try. So I use the FTDI one on the Mac now and the prolific on a raspberry pi. e.g. terminal connection to an SWTPC.

I do have a real (i.e. expensive, the fake ftdi chips dont work so well either but fine for other applications). ftdi chip and Max 232 chip to have a go at rolling my own but not got around to it.

I sometime wonder if Martin was paid by FTDI to only make UPURS work with their product :)

Be interesting to see if your results mirror other peoples.

User avatar
MartinB
Posts: 4944
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:04 pm
Location: Obscurity
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by MartinB » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:39 pm

No need for payment, I own FTDI - didn't you realise?

User avatar
guddler
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:43 am
Location: W.Somerset
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by guddler » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:15 pm

Haha! I really had to read that post a couple of times before the penny dropped. You see, I'm another Martin :D So I wondered why someone would side with me, then write stuff that appeared to side with MartinB. I forget that the last time I met with people from *. was back around 2010 so hardly anyone here apart from maybe Arcadian know my real name.

SO, I might be looking for a link to a genuine FTDI cable then. I know, it's probably linked to in the UPURS thread - I'll look.

ANYWAY, I am just about to try and see if I can swap things around without redoing my wiring completely but I think I've found the issue with this cart. The /CE lines (pin 20) are reversed between IC1 and IC2 on this cart. So IC2 is connected to pin 7, IC1 is connected to pin 6. The opposite of the schematic.

I bet someone is now going to point to a post in the previous 12 pages where this is already pointed out??

Anyway, will update if this then works.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 3079
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: EEPROM - the Holy Grail of Sideways Rom?

Post by Elminster » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:06 pm

guddler wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:15 pm
Haha! I really had to read that post a couple of times before the penny dropped. You see, I'm another Martin :D So I wondered why someone would side with me, then write stuff that appeared to side with MartinB.
Perhaps you just went crazy in the intervening years.

I just remember having this same conversation with Martin(b) about 17 times, and annoyingly he usually wins.

Post Reply