BeebSID

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
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Arcadian
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Arcadian » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:29 am

MartinB wrote:
sirmorris wrote:Did I imagine it or did someone at InDa80s have an AtomSID going??
I heard that malicious rumour too but in the absence of pictures and videos I'm treating it as a damn lie.... =;
Proof!!! ;)

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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:59 am

So the truth is out there....

Thanks Dave :D

Can't see the board too well Charlie - did you stick with conventional LS logic like BeebSID or is AtomSID based on modern crap programmable logic ? :-k

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Re: BeebSID

Post by Prime » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:18 am

MartinB wrote:So the truth is out there....

Thanks Dave :D

Can't see the board too well Charlie - did you stick with conventional LS logic like BeebSID or is AtomSID based on modern crap programmable logic ? :-k
Believe for convenience when developing he has a PAL in there. Of course once the logic is worked out there's no reason why you couldn't replace that with LS.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:06 pm

'A' Martin wrote:As I'll be using the 6581, I'm just wondering if anyone's experimented with various values with this chip and if so, what were your findings?
The caps aren't specifically a BeebSID issue, they're generically a SID thing. If you Google "sid filter caps" or similar you will be bombarded with info and you'll see that the caps can range from 470pf upto about .01uf :shock:. (The audiophiles even argue that they can distingush between different chips of the same part number!)

Seems it will depend on how discerning you ears are and how much patience you've got. (Do drummers have pitch btw...? :wink:)

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Re: BeebSID

Post by mga1103 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:40 pm

MartinB wrote:... If you Google "sid filter caps" or similar you will be bombarded with info...
Time to give Google a poke ( :twisted: ) so... :wink:
..and wrote:...(Do drummers have pitch btw...? :wink:)
LOL...you're not gonna get me to open that door [-X :wink:

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BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by poink » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:28 pm

I've noticed quite a few hardware projects coming through here for the Beeb now. (Those responsible doubtless know who they are :D)

I wonder if getting the layout files somewhere like http://batchpcb.com/ (I've personally not used them, just heard good things) would be desirable. As I understand it, this, or something similar, would allow people interested in a PCB to order one on demand.

This might give more life to things like the BeebSid (although one imagines that significant popularity of that particular project might make us unpopular with the Commodore people.)

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by station240 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:44 am

Problem with batchPCB* is unless your an American you get nothing if your board design sells. Plus their postal system is up the creek w/out a paddle so only expensive postage options for International till they fix things.

So to work we need a non US service, say Europe/UK which would help cut down the postage bill.

Thing is there are huge savings in ordering PCBs in batches, big difference between a $1 board and a $8 one.

Honestly if we wanted to share boards designs, with no return to the creator, we could just upload the files needed to here.

* a sparkfun company, US based so *^&#@ stupid US taxation laws.

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Re: BeebSID

Post by mga1103 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:28 pm

Finally got mine built! I've popped it into the only enclosure I had available (of a reasonable size) until I find a better one. Well impressed with the sound this produces, even through the beeb's speaker.
MGA BeebSID (Medium).JPG
MGA BeebSID (Medium).JPG (41.19 KiB) Viewed 1628 times
But then I hooked it up to a headphone tube amp and had a listen through a pair of Sennheiser HD 600 headphones. Wow! What detail! This is teriffic sound! Don't know if I'll be able to go back to the beeb's speaker though :-k :wink:
MGA BeebSID XCAN (Medium).JPG
MGA BeebSID XCAN (Medium).JPG (42.38 KiB) Viewed 1628 times
I'm a little late to this party, but well done Martin & Tom. Great job! =D>

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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB » Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:29 am

Now that is one professional looking BeebSID =D>

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by jgharston » Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:54 pm

I draw my PCB designs with PaintShopPro[1], saved as GIFs, and emailed as uncomrepressed JPEGs to OneWayCircuits in Norwich.

[1]Actually, I start with pencil and paper ;)

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by george.h » Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:32 pm

Oooooo.... How much do OneWayCircuits typically charge? They have minumum quantities etc?

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by jgharston » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:12 am

george.h wrote:Oooooo.... How much do OneWayCircuits typically charge? They have minumum quantities etc?
Might be out of date now, but the 8-bit IDE card was £230 for 25, worked out at approx. £9.45 each. That included importing the artwork.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by poink » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:33 am

station240 wrote:So to work we need a non US service, say Europe/UK which would help cut down the postage bill.
BatchPCB just happened to be one I knew of; if people have better suggestions, I'm all ears.
station240 wrote:Thing is there are huge savings in ordering PCBs in batches, big difference between a $1 board and a $8 one.
That's certainly true, and I'd prefer $1 boards, but I'd prefer to be able to get an $8 board rather than no board at all.
station240 wrote:Honestly if we wanted to share boards designs, with no return to the creator, we could just upload the files needed to here.
I was aiming for something as close as possible to bunging someone some cash and getting a board in the post. The difficulty with files is that different PCB houses seem to have different design rules, especially it seems ones who deal in prototype quantities.

That said, the situation I'd really like to avoid is someone's work languishing underutilized because you can't get the design and they're not getting any return anyway, because. they're not selling it.

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by MartinB » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:07 am

In the case of BeebSID, it was always a not_for_profit project from the outset and I'm more than happy to let anyone have the PCB files :D. I would only have a hissy fit if I saw someone trying to unreasonably profit from the design but if I remember rightly we had a long discussion about that somewhere on the thread (mostly over my head) and I think the conclusion was that I probably can't stop that from happening anyway :roll:

Ordering a batch is definitely the only guaranteed way to get a good price but it needs someone to do what I did and be prepared to do the organisational work. I got firm pre-orders to minimise the risk (although I don't think that was ever a problem :wink:) but I could have gone further and asked for the money up-front so that I wouldn't even have had to find the lump sum. The only real hassle was packing & posting 20+ boards to everyone but ultimately the whole process meant that the price stayed as low as possible given the numbers involved.

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by Prime » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:12 pm

What PCB package where the original files produced in ?

As there are I believe a couple of errors in the original boards, it would I think make sense to fix these before making another batch if this is going to happen.

Oh and I used these guys : http://www.tecbridgecircuits.co.uk/ (on sirmorris' recommendation) for the Atom boards I had made.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by station240 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:59 pm

BatchPCB have fixed their ordering system so it offers USPS (US Postal Service) instead of couriers only. Its good for prototypes as the minimum quantity is one. Though the boards aren't electrically tested so they throw in 'spares'. So when I ordered one board I got a second one for free, and both work fine.

The last company I used do 20+ boards (10x10cm) for $30, including postage. I can't recommend them though as my last order hasn't arrived after a month. There are many companies in HK/China who will do small batches, downside being the postage is either cheap or fast (but not both).

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by MartinB » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:09 pm

Sorry Phill, I missed your question....
On the subject of a second batch of PCB's I previously wrote:I would propose as a minimum to 'fix' the RCA and DC connector layouts, add some pin header options for same (and the LED) and add pads with an option link for the 6581 output load resistor.
Yes, these niggles would ideally be sorted out but you could also just regard them as part of the authentically original and endearing quirkiness of BeebSID :D

I used DipTrace because if you recall, there were no willing volunteers and I'd never done this PCB design stuff before so being a numpty, I found that to be the easiest free package to learn and use. I exported Gerber files to send to Tecbridge Circuits who did stirling work - so much so I think it was actually me who recommended them to sirmorris :-k

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by Prime » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:49 am

Ok how's this for a preliminary re-layout.....
beeb_sid.png
Beeb SID MK2
beeb_sid.png (63.75 KiB) Viewed 1617 times
BTW Mods if you feel this should be in a seperate thread, feel free to split it.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by sirmorris » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:14 am

One thing which bothered me a little (because I was always burning my arm ;¬) was the amount of heat the 5V regulator pumped when being fed >12V. Pads for direct connection to a regulated +5/+12 supply would be neat.

For the 9V SID I used a boost regulator. I fed the board 5V and the booster supplied the 9. It was cool. Literally.

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by Prime » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:27 am

sirmorris wrote:One thing which bothered me a little (because I was always burning my arm ;¬) was the amount of heat the 5V regulator pumped when being fed >12V. Pads for direct connection to a regulated +5/+12 supply would be neat.
K will add that, prolly with the same layout as a 3.5" drive power connector, I'll also add jumpers so you can select either regulated or un-regulated input.

As it stands it needs a regulated 12V input.

Any ideas how much current is drawn on each of the voltages ?
For the 9V SID I used a boost regulator. I fed the board 5V and the booster supplied the 9. It was cool. Literally.
That could be considdered and would allow the board to run off a 5v only supply. However I would preferably like to design round something that is available from a regular electronics vendor.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by station240 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:33 pm

Prime wrote:Ok how's this for a preliminary re-layout.....
beeb_sid.png
Looks like you need to redo the pad design for the DC power socket, as the commonly available ones have flat tabs instead of round pins.

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by Prime » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:55 pm

station240 wrote:
Prime wrote:Ok how's this for a preliminary re-layout.....
beeb_sid.png
Looks like you need to redo the pad design for the DC power socket, as the commonly available ones have flat tabs instead of round pins.
Indeed, I think I'll just open the holes out to the with of the flat pads, as it's much easier to drill a circular hole than a slot....at least if you are making your own board.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by Prime » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:59 pm

@MartinB

Can you remind me what the FET is for in the power input, and is it P or N channel never can remember which is which ? Also what is it's number as nothing is marked on the schematic.

Cheers.

Phill.

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Re: BatchPCB for hardware projects

Post by MartinB » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:23 pm

BeebSID MOSFET.JPG
BeebSID MOSFET.JPG (8.64 KiB) Viewed 1586 times
It's for polarity protection without the volts drop of a diode and it's a P-Channel MOSFET. You're right, I somehow lost the type number from Iss.2 of the schematic :roll:. (The idea for this application was kindly provided by AlanD.)

The one I used in the end is : IRFD9024 60V P CHANNEL DIL MOSFET (e.g. Rapid 47-0230)

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Re: BeebSID

Post by andyt31 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:07 pm

About.... flaming.... time. It is built. :D

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Re: BeebSID

Post by sirmorris » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:13 pm

=D> =D> =D> =D>

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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:16 pm

Nice one Andy - better late than never :D

(Don't come crying to me btw if you reverse the power lines [-X :wink:)

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Re: BeebSID

Post by andyt31 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:19 pm

Its only a temporary measure. Will get the correct part at some point.
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:24 pm

I have just checked to see if I had any left over but sadly not :(

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Re: BeebSID

Post by mga1103 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:24 am

I'm starting to think, BeebSID looks waaaay better without any enclosure! Am I the only sucker that's wrapped him up??? :-k (Well, I only did it for his own good :D ).

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