BeebSID

discuss both original and modern hardware for the bbc micro/electron
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MartinB
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB »

I've tried to make the power supply requirement as simple and flexible as possible and for either type of SID, a simple plug-in 12v adaptor, available for £5 or even a lot less, will do the job perfectly. The only specific requirement is that if you are using a 12v SID and are hence going to power the chip directly from the adaptor (LK2 NORTH) then the adaptor must be a Regulated unit. If you are using a 9v SID and are using the on-board 9v regulator (LK2 SOUTH) then any 12v DC adaptor will suffice - regulated or unregulated. Note also that you can even use a 9v Regulated (only) adaptor with a 9v SID and set LK2 NORTH. For all types of regulator, I would recommend a 500mA or greater unit.

For clarity, a Regulated adaptor will maintain an output of 12v (or whatever it's specified output is) regardless of load whereas an Unregulated unit may output 15v (or more) until a load is applied and even then may not fall to 12v unless fully loaded. The unregulated type are therefore eminently unsuitable for supply critical electronics unless further on-board regulation is applied.

On this subject and returning to the parts list, I notice I've exampled with a 2.5mm DC connector which may be a bit of overkill and may not be the most common size - I suspect the latter is more likely to be 2.1mm. (I just happen to have lots of 2.5mm plugs and sockets knocking around and so pointed to that size.)
Connector size is irrelevant if you're buying a plug and socket to match but if folk are rooting in drawers for long-forgotten adaptors then they may find that the fixed (not swappable) types are 2.1mm. That said, many of these adaptors are supplied with interchangeable plugs and will then include a 2.5mm size.

Just thought I'd pad the thread out whilst we're all incessantly tapping our fingers waiting for news :roll:

Martin
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MurrayCakaMuzer »

Anyone happen to know if Amstrad monitor 12V is regulated or not?
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Re: BeebSID

Post by Elk Towers »

The yanks must of got wind of the beebsid, take a look at the price. For that I would of expected a complete mint c64 or c128 :D

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Commodore-64-128- ... 5ad284cc96

bet he dont sell it.
Nick
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MartinB
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB »

The suppliers wrote:Dear Martin,

Our factory has finished and shipped your boards - and we are expecting to receive the consignment either tomorrow or Wednesday.

I'm afraid courier performance is somewhat erratic at this time of year and we are on the edge of our seats tracking consignments in shipping with fingers and toes crossed.

The effective start date for your order was Tuesday 8th December + 11 working days takes us to Wednesday 23rd December. I'm afraid this is touch and go at the moment and we are monitoring the situation closely to see if we can spring the consignment containing your boards out of DHL earlier - fortunately the DHL depot is sufficiently close for us to do that.

In the worst case scenario we may not receive the boards in time for us to ship before Christmas Eve, in which case delivery would be Monday 28th. We are closed only for Christmas day and Boxing day.

Kind regards
In fairness, they did warn me before the order was formalised that I was risking colliding with Xmas but I stuck with the slowest 11 days in order to get full-spec boards at the lowest possible price. It's looking unlikely then that I'll be passing the boards on before Xmas even if I get them before :(

Maybe it's time for iomanoid to do a bit more chanting in the sacred 'Circle of SIDs' ....

Martin
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iomanoid
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Re: BeebSID

Post by iomanoid »

Certainly, I shall do that, and funnel the results over to you via the gift of prisms strategically placed around and about the countryside...
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB »

Excellent.... :wink:

Martin
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB »

After a huge burst of prismatic energy from iomanoid, there's good news and bad news. Specifically, the good news is for me :D and the bad news is for the rest of you :(

The nice pcb man called me today and said they'd managed to prise the relevant consignment from DHL (who are actually contracted to collect from China and deliver to me) and the boards are going to be sent by RM Special Delivery to arrive with me on Xmas Eve. Even assuming they pull it off, it still means you're all going to have to make do with yet another picture, albeit the most exciting yet, until after Christmas :roll:. Mind you, there might even be a video too at some point which will either be of a working BeebSID or of me buying a plane ticket to a far away place....

@ Murray : I know absolutely jack about Amstrad computers but I've had a look at the circuit diagrams for two versions of a PCW (6128?) monitor that output 12v DC. In both cases the supply is regulated, by a transistor in the earlier one and by a 7812 in the later one. Neither one though seems to have much (if anything) in the way of smoothing but there is a 47uf cap on BeebSID which will probably do the job. If you do try it and get noise or hum then it would probably need the 47uf beefing up to more like a 220uf to calm things down. The 12v supply appears to have been exclusively for the floppy disc drive (correct me if I'm wrong) and so cleanliness wouldn't have been a major worry.
Personally, I'd always stick at least a DVM (off-load) on any supply I wasn't 100% sure about and probably also a scope to check for ripple and any other noise that may get superimposed - especially when the supply is being generated inside a HT monitor.

Martin
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MurrayCakaMuzer »

I have a CTM644 colour monitor (two in fact - both with the 12V port, as I know some don't). This one is probably the same, though. The 12V is indeed used solely for the floppy drive, but it powers the drive motor so presumably that needs to be pretty well-controlled (as it needs to move at a constant speed)?
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MartinB
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB »

Murray wrote:...it powers the drive motor so presumably that needs to be pretty well-controlled (as it needs to move at a constant speed)?
Sadly not that simple I'm afraid. Floppy spindle motors are typically controlled by a closed-loop servo system - too complicated for this thread but suffice to say they are largely impervious (within reason) to variations in the supply voltage. Mark H alluded to this when we were discussing the Beeb 12v drive supply which is fairly smooth and reasonably regulated but by no means a guaranteed 12v. (Fine for SIDs though :wink:)

Martin
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Re: BeebSID

Post by regregex »

MartinB wrote:After a huge burst of prismatic energy from iomanoid, there's good news and bad news. Specifically, the good news is for me :D and the bad news is for the rest of you :(

The nice pcb man called me today and said they'd managed to prise the relevant consignment from DHL (who are actually contracted to collect from China and deliver to me) and the boards are going to be sent by RM Special Delivery to arrive with me on Xmas Eve.
Hope the shipment doesn't arrive too late... :)
D'you get that order in writing?
D'you get that order in writing?
beebsids.jpg (19.17 KiB) Viewed 3390 times
But sincerely, best of luck with this project. Happy Christmas!

--Greg
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Re: BeebSID

Post by batfink »

If anyone that attempts this has spare 64 parts to sell on, please consider PM'ing me as my own 64 needs a new PLA!!

Many thanks,
Pete
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB »

Greg wrote:Hope the shipment doesn't arrive too late...
Heh Heh, but alas you've been eerily prophetic. Due to the UK being a frozen wasteland (allegedly), the transfer was marginally outside the RM Special Delivery pick-up time and it now looks as if I've missed tomorrow which immediately jumps us to the 29th. Hmmm... I did warn of hissy-fits in an earlier post but I didn't think it was going to be me :evil:

Cheers Greg and Happy Xmas to you :D
Pete wrote:If anyone that attempts this has spare 64 parts to sell on, please consider PM'ing me as my own 64 needs a new PLA!!
Ah, you obviously haven't heard about BeebPLA then... :wink:

Martin
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MurrayCakaMuzer »

batfink wrote:If anyone that attempts this has spare 64 parts to sell on, please consider PM'ing me as my own 64 needs a new PLA!!

Many thanks,
Pete
You sure? When my C64 was broken, it was diagnosed as being the PLA, but it was actually the SID (a bit of a kick in the teeth, as now I need 2 rather than 0!)
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Re: BeebSID

Post by batfink »

You sure?
Not really, no!! Although the symptons shown when it at least half way feels like playing ball, & the black screen given 8 out of 10 power on's suggest so from what I've been able to gather from referencing the fault on line. The PLA's are a particular C64 weak spot as far as I can ascertain.

As far as build quality, design & reliability go, C64's are really, really, REALLY bloody dreadful machines, & that's coming from someone with a soft spot for them. It's possible to destroy the sound chip by furiously waggling a joystick plugged into port one, for example! Although they were capable of some impressive audio \ visuals for such an old machine - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm76edDIaRA - They really are rough old dogs!!!

I do have a beeb incidentally, that I bought a couple of years back. The BBC B was my first childhood computer (Although in a commercial sense it was out of date even then). Unlike the Speccy & C64 I also own now, the old Beeb has never failed!
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MurrayCakaMuzer »

batfink wrote:
You sure?
Not really, no!! Although the symptons shown when it at least half way feels like playing ball, & the black screen given 8 out of 10 power on's suggest so from what I've been able to gather from referencing the fault on line. The PLA's are a particular C64 weak spot as far as I can ascertain.

As far as build quality, design & reliability go, C64's are really, really, REALLY bloody dreadful machines, & that's coming from someone with a soft spot for them. It's possible to destroy the sound chip by furiously waggling a joystick plugged into port one, for example! Although they were capable of some impressive audio \ visuals for such an old machine - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm76edDIaRA - They really are rough old dogs!!!

I do have a beeb incidentally, that I bought a couple of years back. The BBC B was my first childhood computer (Although in a commercial sense it was out of date even then). Unlike the Speccy & C64 I also own now, the old Beeb has never failed!
My symptoms (faulty SID) were:

* Black screen on most power ons
* Normal border/background but with random characters, mostly @s and checker patterns, sometimes not filling the whole screen, on some power ons
* Black border/background with randomly coloured bars filling each character square on some power ons.

Most of the time there was also a humming over the speaker

A quick way of finding out is to remove the SID - it works without it.
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB »

@ Murray : Have you tried the rejected SID in another C64 or a good SID in your machine...?

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Re: BeebSID

Post by MurrayCakaMuzer »

No; my other C64 has the 8580 SID (this is the 6581) and I don't have any spare SIDs. I'll buy the BeebSID though in case it does work, and if it doesn't, I'll buy another SID some time in the future.
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB »

Ok Murray. You know me, just advocating caution because in electronic gadgets, removing a bit to clear a fault doesn't necessarily prove that the bit is faulty. I'm sure you're right but I can still see scope for a faulty PLA (assuming that controls the SID?) which might be mis-addressing the SID.

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Re: BeebSID

Post by MurrayCakaMuzer »

I'm not 100% about this, but I presumed the PLA controlled most of the C64's hardware?
http://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/PLA_(C64_chip)
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Re: BeebSID

Post by batfink »

EDIT***Have bought a whole new replacement machine instead!!!***EDIT




Thanks for the suggestion Murray, but my machine still throws a wobbly without the 6581 installed.

I've come across an American company which carries new & used stock of chips for numerous out of date Commodore contraptions, including tested SIDs: http://www.oldsoftware.com/Commodore.html#anchor70939. Assuming that I can persuade them to ship to the UK, I'll update this thread with whether they're a reliable source!
Last edited by batfink on Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BeebSID

Post by retroclinic »

Hmmm...the CBM PLA is an 82S100? Anyone have the JEDEC file for that? We could certainly re-engineer that quite easily with a PAL or depending on the equations, an XC9536 at worst.

Mark.
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Re: BeebSID

Post by batfink »

Hmmm...the CBM PLA is an 82S100? Anyone have the JEDEC file for that? We could certainly re-engineer that quite easily with a PAL or depending on the equations, an XC9536 at worst.
That's way over my head, but Is this what you're after:


http://www.sx64.net/downloads/C64%20PLA ... ations.txt
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Re: BeebSID

Post by retroclinic »

Yes it is!

!CASRAM and !I_O have too many terms for those to fit into any PAL, but that lot should go into an XC9536 easily enough, as stated on that page. Now, I (or someone else) just need to find the time/motivation to do it!

Mark.
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Re: BeebSID

Post by batfink »

If I understand Correctly (There is a first time for everything - could this be it?) this relates to replacing the PLA chip (Labelled 906114 - 01 - 3584 in my machine) with a burnt EEPROM copy of its internal gubbins.

Taking a chip out & replacing it with a new one I can do, but burning EEPROMs I don't have the knowledge or equipment for. If it could be done easily, & if I could possibly temp you with cash; Name your price, Sir!

Also, I found a place with a .C file of the PLA:http://zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/firm ... uters/c64/

EDIT***Have now bought an entire new machine instead!***EDIT
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB »

BeebSID PCB.JPG
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Martin :D
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Re: BeebSID

Post by retroclinic »

\:D/
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Re: BeebSID

Post by sorvad »

Cooler than a snowmans underpants ;)
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Re: BeebSID

Post by MartinB »

Sorry about the wordless post this morning, been busy with family hospital runs so just did a quick piccie. The boards look really smart and assuming they're to drawing, I've certainly no complaints.

All being well, I still plan to build one this evening so watch this space and fingers crossed 8-[

Incidentally, as a Christmas bonus I actually got 28 boards which can happen if there's some space left on the larger factory board so if anyone missed out, let me know via the thread.

Hopefully later then....

Martin
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Re: BeebSID

Post by andyt31 »

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Re: BeebSID

Post by irrelevant »

andyt31 wrote:SID Alternative ?!?!? :D

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/1 ... ed_on.html
Hmm. I've got a couple of ATmega's floating about just looking to be used for something..! Pity it's not a pin-for-pin drop in project.
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