Help please - resurrecting model B

discuss both original and modern hardware for the bbc micro/electron
Post Reply
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

May I request some help, please, with the following?

1. Error - Language?

I have been trying to get a Model B going after 30 years in storage. It powers up and displays on the screen "Language?" and will not accept any keyboard inputs.

I suspected that there might be a problem with the ROMs. The first attached picture shows the ROMs in place on the B that has this problem.

A second B that is working properly has the ROMs shown in the second picture. I have removed all the ROMs from the non-working B and replaced them with the ROMS from the working B. The same error comes up.

2. VGA pin-out

I have a Sony Trinitron CPD-1301E which has an unusual VGA input socket. I plan to make a custom cable to allow it to be used with a BBC Micro.

Can anyone advise me on the pin-out of the VGA output of the BBC micro?

Regards

Jon Dane
Attachments
Non-working model B
Non-working model B
Working model B
Working model B
RobC
Posts: 3079
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by RobC »

The Language? error usually means that the BASIC ROM is missing or damaged. However, as you've replaced the ROMs with a known working set, it's more likely to be an issue with the sockets.

I'd remove all the ROMs from the non-working machine. The MOS ROM "PB04" should go in the left-most socket so put the known good one in there. Then try the good BASIC ROM "PB05" in each of the remaining four sockets.

If it still won't work, try cleaning the sockets with IPA/contact cleaner. If it still fails, it will be time to get the test equipment out.

Details of the Beeb's RGB output are here: http://mdfs.net/Info/Comp/BBC/Monitor/BBCtoTV.htm
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

Hi Rob,

Thank you for your help and for responding so fast!

Can I assume that the pin-out of the VGA socket is as it would appear looking from the back of the BBC micro? Because these connectors are symmetrical, I always worry whether I'm looking at a socket or a plug, which are of course mirror images of each other.

Best regards

Jon Dane
User avatar
DutchAcorn
Posts: 2315
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:56 am
Location: Maarn, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by DutchAcorn »

jondane wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:38 am
Hi Rob,

Thank you for your help and for responding so fast!

Can I assume that the pin-out of the VGA socket is as it would appear looking from the back of the BBC micro? Because these connectors are symmetrical, I always worry whether I'm looking at a socket or a plug, which are of course mirror images of each other.

Best regards

Jon Dane
I can't find the specifications of the Sony monitor but the BBC Micro does not support VGA. The monitor needs to support a 15KHz refresh rate, typically found on older television-like monitors. A TV with a SCART input usually works. VGA monitors that support 15KHz are uncommon.

As for looking at the plug or socket; the pin numbers are often printed on the plug (you may need a magnifier to read them).
Paul

Image
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

Hi, thanks for your reply. My mistake - so many years with PCs - I should have said "RGB" not VGA. The Sony monitor is described as a "character display and its inputs are labelled RGB, etc.

Yes, I can be sure that I've not got a mirror image by checking the numbers on the mating plug.

All the best,

Jon Dane
User avatar
Wheel_nut
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 1:46 pm
Location: West of Scotland
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by Wheel_nut »

This should give you the information you need:
RGB.gif
scart.gif
#1 BBC Model B Issue 7 + 1770 DFS + Dual TEAC Floppy
#2 BBC Model B Issue 7 + 8271 DFS + Dual Floppy + Speech
#3 BBC Model B Issue 7 + 8271 DFS + Cumana Single Floppy + PiTubeDirect on KenLowe's Tube Level Shifter
marcelaj1
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2020 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by marcelaj1 »

jondane wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:25 am
May I request some help, please, with the following?

1. Error - Language?

I have been trying to get a Model B going after 30 years in storage. It powers up and displays on the screen "Language?" and will not accept any keyboard inputs.
I had the same problem when I had fitted an atpi sidewise rom board, it turned out to be the S21 link not being right. I know it is not what you have fitted but could be the same reason.
Colday
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:18 pm
Location: North Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by Colday »

The 'Language?' error is caused by Beeb not being able to see the Basic ROM.

As stated above this ends in PB05.

The OS ROM which ends in PB04 should be in the socket marked IC51.

The Basic ROM can go in any of the ROM sockets to the right of that IC51. I often put it in IC52 if I have no other ROM's to fit. However the BBC reads the ROM slots from right to left in that row, this means that if you have another ROM which acts as a 'Language' and it is further right in that row of ROM sockets than PB05, it will find that first.

Therefore a lot of people will put the PB05 Basic ROM into IC101 as this is the socket that is read first and you will always end up with Basic.

PB05 can go into any of these ROM sockets (not IC51 as that is dealt with differently by the Beeb as it is specifically for the OS ROM) so try it in any of them. If you still get 'Language?' when you have tried it in all, it could be a faulty ROM or more likely some dry solder joints or broken traces.

Have a look at the Fault Finding index thread at the top of the 8-bit acorn hardware here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2190

Of course though, report back here and help will be forthcoming.
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

Thank you, that's very helpful.
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

marcelaj1 wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:08 pm
jondane wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:25 am

I had the same problem when I had fitted an atpi sidewise rom board, it turned out to be the S21 link not being right. I know it is not what you have fitted but could be the same reason.
Thank you for your help.
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

Wheel_nut wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:32 pm
This should give you the information you need:

RGB.gifscart.gif
Thank you.
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

Colday wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:47 am
The 'Language?' error is caused by Beeb not being able to see the Basic ROM.

As stated above this ends in PB05.

The OS ROM which ends in PB04 should be in the socket marked IC51.

The Basic ROM can go in any of the ROM sockets to the right of that IC51. I often put it in IC52 if I have no other ROM's to fit. However the BBC reads the ROM slots from right to left in that row, this means that if you have another ROM which acts as a 'Language' and it is further right in that row of ROM sockets than PB05, it will find that first.

Therefore a lot of people will put the PB05 Basic ROM into IC101 as this is the socket that is read first and you will always end up with Basic.

PB05 can go into any of these ROM sockets (not IC51 as that is dealt with differently by the Beeb as it is specifically for the OS ROM) so try it in any of them. If you still get 'Language?' when you have tried it in all, it could be a faulty ROM or more likely some dry solder joints or broken traces.

Have a look at the Fault Finding index thread at the top of the 8-bit acorn hardware here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2190

Of course though, report back here and help will be forthcoming.
I tried again in the light of your helpful comments. I have established that the Basic ROM is OK, as it works in the other B. I have tried the Basic ROM in all the other sockets without it changing anything.

Do you have any further suggestions?

Thanks

Jon Dane
e668ecp
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by e668ecp »

Can you try another working ROM which displays itself on the start up screen (i.e. below BBC Computer 32k) and see if that appears. Just a thought that the ROM sockets could be at fault as I've just repaired one where ROMs were not making contact with one of the sockets

I also fixed one a few weeks ago where the ROM's in certain sockets were not working (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20568&p=288768#p288768) and IC76 was the fault
Colday
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:18 pm
Location: North Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by Colday »

jondane wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:46 pm
I tried again in the light of your helpful comments. I have established that the Basic ROM is OK, as it works in the other B. I have tried the Basic ROM in all the other sockets without it changing anything.

Do you have any further suggestions?
Do you have access to an EPROM programmer? If so then using Tricky's test ROM would be beneficial.


If not then give me a shout and I'm sure we can come to some arrangement as I can program one for you and send it in the post.
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

Colday wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:49 am
jondane wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:46 pm
I tried again in the light of your helpful comments. I have established that the Basic ROM is OK, as it works in the other B. I have tried the Basic ROM in all the other sockets without it changing anything.

Do you have any further suggestions?
Do you have access to an EPROM programmer? If so then using Tricky's test ROM would be beneficial.


If not then give me a shout and I'm sure we can come to some arrangement as I can program one for you and send it in the post.
Thank you. Yes, I'd like to try the test ROM, please.
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

jondane wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:44 am
Colday wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:49 am
jondane wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:46 pm
I tried again in the light of your helpful comments. I have established that the Basic ROM is OK, as it works in the other B. I have tried the Basic ROM in all the other sockets without it changing anything.

Do you have any further suggestions?
Do you have access to an EPROM programmer? If so then using Tricky's test ROM would be beneficial.


If not then give me a shout and I'm sure we can come to some arrangement as I can program one for you and send it in the post.
Thank you. Yes, I'd like to try the test ROM, please.
Thank you for your PM. I am grateful for your offer. Since I am new here, I am not allowed to reply. My address is

Jon Dane
Broadgate
Henfield Common North
Henfield
BN5 9RL
Colday
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:18 pm
Location: North Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by Colday »

Ah, you just need to ask the mods nicely!!
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

Colday wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:24 pm
Ah, you just need to ask the mods nicely!!
Hi, have you been able to send the test ROM? I have not yet received it. I will be happy to pay for the ROM - just say how much and a PayPal account.

Best regards

Jon
Colday
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:18 pm
Location: North Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by Colday »

Oh poop.

Sorry, I've not yet got to it as other stuff has meant my EPROM programmer has been out away.

I shall get it out tonight and lob it in the post for you. You WILL have it by the weekend!
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

Colday wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:58 pm
Oh poop.

Sorry, I've not yet got to it as other stuff has meant my EPROM programmer has been out away.

I shall get it out tonight and lob it in the post for you. You WILL have it by the weekend!
Thank you! Very sorry to nag...
Colday
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:18 pm
Location: North Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by Colday »

In the end I have sent you my actual own EEPROM with the test ROM on.

I've been up to my ears in other stuff and didn't get a chance to blow a new EPROM.

It went in the post this afternoon but I think it will get 'picked up' tomorrow from the post box. In theory it will be with you Saturday hopefully.

Good luck!
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

jondane wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:12 pm
Colday wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:58 pm
Oh poop.

Sorry, I've not yet got to it as other stuff has meant my EPROM programmer has been out away.

I shall get it out tonight and lob it in the post for you. You WILL have it by the weekend!
Thank you! Very sorry to nag...

I have a Torch Z80 2nd processor system with twin floppies. A customer is interested in buying it but is concerned that it may overload the BBC power supply. Can you, or anyone else that you know of, supply a BBC PSU on its own that the customer can use to power the disk pack independently?
User avatar
JasonStonier
Posts: 448
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:10 pm
Location: Dorset
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by JasonStonier »

The tri-rail Meanwell RPT-60A supply is compatible with the beeb as it has +12, +5, -5v, but for what you want I'd guess a dual rail 12/5v power supply would work as I doubt the Torch needs -5v and the drives definitely don't.

If you need to put the fancy beeb aux power plug on it, and can't fine one, an ATX motherboard power plug is close enough that you can make it mate properly.
Colday
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:18 pm
Location: North Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by Colday »

jondane wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:39 am
jondane wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:12 pm
Colday wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:58 pm
Oh poop.

Sorry, I've not yet got to it as other stuff has meant my EPROM programmer has been out away.

I shall get it out tonight and lob it in the post for you. You WILL have it by the weekend!
Thank you! Very sorry to nag...

I have a Torch Z80 2nd processor system with twin floppies. A customer is interested in buying it but is concerned that it may overload the BBC power supply. Can you, or anyone else that you know of, supply a BBC PSU on its own that the customer can use to power the disk pack independently?
Although I have many Beeb's and I have bought many broken ones, I am yet to buy one that I haven't been able to fix. I keep trying to buy broken 'spares' machines but never manage to get one that's very dead. (or dead enough not to resurrect) so sorry, but I literally do not have any spare PSU's. I really wish I did have as it would mean beeb's are much easier to fix as can take the board out of the case and fix on the workbench.
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

Colday wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:26 am
jondane wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:39 am
jondane wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:12 pm


Thank you! Very sorry to nag...

I have a Torch Z80 2nd processor system with twin floppies. A customer is interested in buying it but is concerned that it may overload the BBC power supply. Can you, or anyone else that you know of, supply a BBC PSU on its own that the customer can use to power the disk pack independently?
Although I have many Beeb's and I have bought many broken ones, I am yet to buy one that I haven't been able to fix. I keep trying to buy broken 'spares' machines but never manage to get one that's very dead. (or dead enough not to resurrect) so sorry, but I literally do not have any spare PSU's. I really wish I did have as it would mean beeb's are much easier to fix as can take the board out of the case and fix on the workbench.
Thanks for letting know.
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

jondane wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:02 am
Colday wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:26 am
jondane wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:39 am



I have a Torch Z80 2nd processor system with twin floppies. A customer is interested in buying it but is concerned that it may overload the BBC power supply. Can you, or anyone else that you know of, supply a BBC PSU on its own that the customer can use to power the disk pack independently?
Although I have many Beeb's and I have bought many broken ones, I am yet to buy one that I haven't been able to fix. I keep trying to buy broken 'spares' machines but never manage to get one that's very dead. (or dead enough not to resurrect) so sorry, but I literally do not have any spare PSU's. I really wish I did have as it would mean beeb's are much easier to fix as can take the board out of the case and fix on the workbench.
Thanks for letting know.
A further thought - do you know where I could buy the type of connecter that plugs into the power take-off port on the underside of the Beeb? I could buy that and the mating female part and make an external PSU for the Beeb using the Zumax PSUs that I sell. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283765000189
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

jondane wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:09 am
jondane wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:02 am
Colday wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:26 am


Although I have many Beeb's and I have bought many broken ones, I am yet to buy one that I haven't been able to fix. I keep trying to buy broken 'spares' machines but never manage to get one that's very dead. (or dead enough not to resurrect) so sorry, but I literally do not have any spare PSU's. I really wish I did have as it would mean beeb's are much easier to fix as can take the board out of the case and fix on the workbench.
Thanks for letting know.
A further thought - do you know where I could buy the type of connecter that plugs into the power take-off port on the underside of the Beeb? I could buy that and the mating female part and make an external PSU for the Beeb using the Zumax PSUs that I sell. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283765000189
Hi, thanks for sending me the test ROM, which arrived this morning.

With just the OS ROM in place, the screen shows "Language?". The only keys that work are shift lock and caps lock, which turn the LEDs on and off, and the break key, which makes the screen flash. Turning on various of the DIP switches cause the screen to boot in various text modes, so that seems to work as well.

With the OS ROM and the test ROM in the socket next to the OS ROM, the beeb acts in exactly as if the test ROM was not there.

Without the OS ROM and with just the test ROM, the beeb does not boot.

So - I'm no further forward.

I hesitate to impose further on your kindness, but do you have any other ideas?

Best regards

Jon
Colday
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:18 pm
Location: North Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by Colday »

The test ROM goes in place of the OS Rom.

It should be the ONLY ROM in place
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!
jondane
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by jondane »

Colday wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:22 pm
The test ROM goes in place of the OS Rom.

It should be the ONLY ROM in place
With no ROMs in place, there is a continuous tone and nothing on the screen.
With the test ROM in the place where the OS goes, it is the same - a continuous tone and nothing on the screen.

I tried the test ROM in a known working Master, with the same result. I put the test ROM in a another socket on the Master, and it booted. I typed *ROMS and got a list but did not identify the test ROM.

Any ideas?
Colday
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:18 pm
Location: North Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Help please - resurrecting model B

Post by Colday »

So, to confirm you have the test ROM in IC51 (in the correct orientation) with no other ROM's in the board at all and you get a single tone?

I have no idea about Masters as I have never had one I'm afraid.
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!
Post Reply

Return to “8-bit acorn hardware”