ROMS - lots and lots

discuss both original and modern hardware for the bbc micro/electron
Colday
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ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Colday » Fri May 15, 2020 3:27 pm

A5588AEE-87AE-488B-8BDE-716391666138.jpeg
14C33F89-E9B1-4AE9-9EAD-C4BFF30042EF.jpeg
Hi all.

Me again.

So as part of the beeb haul I acquired today were lots of ROMS.

Lots.

Some I recognise, some not.

As you can see there are also 2x external ROM boards which I was unaware of even existing.

The box of ROMS has not been well cared for and I would be very surprised if many of them work at all. Especially the uncovered EPROMS.

If you look at the pic of the polystyrene box you can see a set on black foam called SISTI. I can find no reference to this anywhere.

There are actually 3x sets of those ROMS (you can see I've stacked the others)

Apparently the guy used to work for Cisco...but whether that is pertinent I do not know.

Any ideas? I recognise the WE chips and there are a couple of DFS and an NFS ROM, anyone know what the others are?
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!

Coeus
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Coeus » Fri May 15, 2020 6:29 pm

So I guess the answers the question about the 6502 daughter board - the ROM board pictured has a connector for a ribbon cable.

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marcusjambler
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by marcusjambler » Fri May 15, 2020 6:36 pm

Get the battery off asap

Colday
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Colday » Fri May 15, 2020 10:33 pm

Yeah, I have two of those rom boxes. Batteries will be removed tomorrow.

I’m not sure the ribbon from the 6502 daughter board is the same size... again, I’ll check tomorrow.

So, do any of those ROMS seem interesting? Apparently the SISTI sets were for some sort of tourist console that they used beebs for in the 80’s.

The guy who had this was the lead developer apparently. Going from what his son is telling me. The guy has Parkinson’s so he is having probs remembering. Keep getting snippets though.
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!

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anightin
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by anightin » Fri May 15, 2020 10:42 pm

Colday wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:33 pm
Yeah, I have two of those rom boxes. Batteries will be removed tomorrow.

I’m not sure the ribbon from the 6502 daughter board is the same size... again, I’ll check tomorrow.

So, do any of those ROMS seem interesting? Apparently the SISTI sets were for some sort of tourist console that they used beebs for in the 80’s.

The guy who had this was the lead developer apparently. Going from what his son is telling me. The guy has Parkinson’s so he is having probs remembering. Keep getting snippets though.
Wow haven't seen one of those for a long time. I had one on my Beeb, a RamRom 15 board by GCC Computers Cambridge. They used to have a showroom in our village which is now an Opticians. Happy days :D

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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Pernod » Fri May 15, 2020 10:49 pm

Colday wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:33 pm
So, do any of those ROMS seem interesting? Apparently the SISTI sets were for some sort of tourist console that they used beebs for in the 80’s.
Yes, most of them. I'm interested in seeing dumps of them all if possible, lots of unknowns in there.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

Colday
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Colday » Sat May 16, 2020 8:34 am

Pernod wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:49 pm
Yes, most of them. I'm interested in seeing dumps of them all if possible, lots of unknowns in there.
Well, always being eager to learn, what hardware do I need to obtain these dumps? And what is the process for doing so?

I presume some sort of ZIF socket?
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!

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tricky
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by tricky » Sat May 16, 2020 8:56 am

In case you haven't found it yet, the little single ROM board plugs into a solidisk sideways RAM board to test that your wiring is correct in case your RAM board doesn't work.
If one of those ROMS can do *SRSAVE (SidewaysRamSAVE) or similar, you can plug them into your beeb and save to GOTEK (if its connected yet).
Having a ZIF (Zero Insertion Force) ROM socket with a little leaver would probably save a few bent or even broken EPROM legs.
Failing that, any cheap EPROM programmer would probably work.
Even if you don't have a utility ROM, I think JGH has a short basic program to copy a ROM to memory where it can be *SAVEd on his site. (Sorry, I can never find anything on his tite, but it is nearly always there!).

Colday
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Colday » Sat May 16, 2020 9:10 am

01D32631-6A94-4B3E-9D44-754D245DCC07.jpeg
1887E0C6-EFA8-42F8-9049-8DBC71B7846C.jpeg
tricky wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:56 am
In case you haven't found it yet, the little single ROM board plugs into a solidisk sideways RAM board
Do you mean this....
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!

Colday
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Colday » Sat May 16, 2020 9:14 am

Or this...
image.jpg
image.jpg
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!

johnkenyon
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by johnkenyon » Sat May 16, 2020 11:10 am

Colday wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:14 am
Or this...

image.jpgimage.jpg

The part number (203,011) looks like a Acorn product.
Possibly an adaptor to put two 2764's into a single 27128 socket.
(i.e. "top half" in one socket and "bottom half" in the other)

Colday
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Colday » Sat May 16, 2020 11:24 am

Colday wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:14 am
Possibly an adaptor to put two 2764's into a single 27128 socket.
What would be the reason to do this?
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!

johnkenyon
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by johnkenyon » Sat May 16, 2020 12:12 pm

Colday wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 11:24 am
Colday wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:14 am
Possibly an adaptor to put two 2764's into a single 27128 socket.
What would be the reason to do this?
Probably one of
* The mask programmed ROM 's won't be along for a few weeks.
* "We have to ship 1.00 now, and then replace with the 1.20 ROM when it's finished."

and/or one of the following
* 2764's are plentiful, but 27128's are hard to get hold of.
* "We've got £1k's worth of 2764's doing nothing, and it would cost us £1.2k for the equivalent number of 27128's, so it's worth spending £500 to allow us to use up the 2764s rather than binning them."

Also remember back in the day, the first BBC B's shipped with BASIC1 in the MOS socket, and the remaining four sockets accepted OS0.1 split over four 2732 EPROMS... The OS didn't support multiple sideways ROMS because there was only one socket!
(see viewtopic.php?t=6358#p61172 )

gfoot
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by gfoot » Sat May 16, 2020 12:44 pm

Ironically, these days it seems easier to get 32k EEPROMs than 16k ones, so the problem is reversed. Armed with a couple of extra diodes I think you can mod a Beeb to accept a combined 32k OS and BASIC ROM in one slot. I thought about how to do this a few weeks ago as I needed to upgrade both OS and BASIC, but changed my mind and went with 16k OTP EPROMs instead.

system11
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by system11 » Sun May 17, 2020 1:23 am

Colday wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 8:34 am
Pernod wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:49 pm
Yes, most of them. I'm interested in seeing dumps of them all if possible, lots of unknowns in there.
Well, always being eager to learn, what hardware do I need to obtain these dumps? And what is the process for doing so?

I presume some sort of ZIF socket?
You need an EPROM programmer, you should do successive reads to see if any bits are changing which would indicate a fault or sometimes just a dirty leg. If they are changing it's best to do many dumps so someone can then work out which the 'correct' state might be. Pretty much any cheap one should do the job. I do quite a lot of this as I'm part of an arcade dumping group, I can only imagine how irritating it would be having to use a ZIF socket plugged into a BBC to do it!

Colday
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Colday » Sun May 17, 2020 7:36 am

Thanks for the help so far.

I spent a few hours yesterday cleaning and repairing the ROMS. I managed to get 11 to 'work'.

I have some things I recognise (Disc Doctor) but others I do not (Keypad)

I also have a couple of WE ROMS. One that I can remember (having just woken up) is called Adder. Which when googled seems to be an EPROM programming/dumping bit of hardware. I have asked the original owner (well, his son) whether there's a bit of overlooked hardware laying about sp fingers crossed there.

Ah, the other WE ROM when *HELP is sent returns only 'Watford electronics'. Further googling may be necessary (unless anyone recognises that?)?

I shall take a photo of each ROM and what it returns and post here if that is ok, unless anyone can suggest an alternative?
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!

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tricky
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by tricky » Sun May 17, 2020 9:38 am

Mini cartridge STL.

Colday
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Colday » Sun May 17, 2020 12:20 pm

tricky wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:38 am
Mini cartridge STL.
In relation to what tricky?
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!

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1024MAK
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by 1024MAK » Sun May 17, 2020 12:50 pm

Colday wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:20 pm
tricky wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:38 am
Mini cartridge STL.
In relation to what tricky?
The item in this post.

On the subject of dumping ROMs, IMHO the easiest ways are:
  1. Use a PC (EPROM) programmer - modern ones attach to a PC via USB and it is normally very easy to upload (copy) the data from a ROM to the PC. You can then put the resulting binary files in to a folder, zip up the folder and upload the zip to the forum as an attachment.
  2. Use an EPROM programmer designed for a BBC B.
  3. Use an ZIP socket plugged into a normal (stamped pin) socket, which is then plugged into one of the sockets on a ROM board (or on the Beebs main board if you shift the keyboard out of the way).
If using 2, use the specific software for the EPROM programmer, if using 3, as said above, use a utility ROM in the Beeb that contains a suitable command.

Mark

system11
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by system11 » Sun May 17, 2020 4:42 pm

If you want them dumping and don't have the hardware or want to buy it, I'd be happy to help. I'm sure there are many people here who could do the same, some many even be local.

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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Colday » Mon May 18, 2020 5:26 pm

system11 wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 4:42 pm
If you want them dumping and don't have the hardware or want to buy it, I'd be happy to help. I'm sure there are many people here who could do the same, some many even be local.
Thanks for the offer!! I think I'll have a go at doing it myself though as it's the best way to learn.

Could someone recommend or give specific examples of:

a) cheap PC USB EPROM programmer
b) better quality PC USB EPROM programmer
c) BBC model B kit that is required to read/write ROMS (cos I have the WE Adder ROM but am unsure if I need the hardware to go with it)

Thanks again all. I love this place for your knowledge. I think I need some sort of translation tool though, you guys do talk proper nerd sometimes.

:wink:
BBC B's... I now have 6!
I also have 1 boxed with manuals, unmolested model A.
And also an unmolested model B. (but not boxed sadly)
12x floppy drives (only 1x currently works I think)...
Learning to repair and refurb keyboards next! No more sticky keys!

system11
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by system11 » Mon May 18, 2020 6:05 pm

a) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Speed-T ... 1655694602

b) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XELTEK-Super ... 2403957598

That b is a lower midrange, you very quickly go up in price from here to devices costing thousands, that's also a grey market one at a fraction of the RRP.

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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Kazzie » Mon May 18, 2020 6:09 pm

The oft-cloned TL866* is a modern (E)EPROM programmer that can be bought on the likes of eBay for ~₤40 shipped from China. It's one I've considered buying (though I've stuck with my vintage ART EPP-1 so far).

* Edit: an example is linked as "a" in the post above
BBC Model B 32K issue 7, Sidewise ROM board with 16K RAM
Archimedes 420/1 upgraded to 4MB RAM, ZIDEFS with 512MB CF card
RiscPC 600 under repair
Acorn System 1 home-made replica

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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Kazzie » Mon May 18, 2020 6:24 pm

Colday wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:26 pm
Thanks again all. I love this place for your knowledge. I think I need some sort of translation tool though, you guys do talk proper nerd sometimes.
Here's a snippet of translation for you:

Some sources, especially ones from the 80s refer to "blowing" an EPROM to write to it. This is a carry-over from the older PROMs (without an 'E') that could only be programmed once. These were essentially matrices of fuse-based links: by sending a high current through a particular bit the fuse would blow and no longer conduct. These days "burning" is the more common phrase (as was used with CD-Rs etc.).
BBC Model B 32K issue 7, Sidewise ROM board with 16K RAM
Archimedes 420/1 upgraded to 4MB RAM, ZIDEFS with 512MB CF card
RiscPC 600 under repair
Acorn System 1 home-made replica

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IanB
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by IanB » Mon May 18, 2020 7:48 pm

Colday wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 9:14 am
Or this...

image.jpgimage.jpg
I have a few of those, it's the "butterfly" board that contained OS 1.00 on two 2764 Eproms and was supplied by Acorn with the 8271/DFS 0.90 disc upgrade kit before OS 1.20 was available in ROM. At that time, 27128s were either not available or really expensive and you could return it to Acorn in exchange for a 1.20 ROM upgrade when available.

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1024MAK
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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by 1024MAK » Mon May 18, 2020 10:05 pm

Colday wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:26 pm
I think I need some sort of translation tool though, you guys do talk proper nerd sometimes.
WHAT, on a nerdy computer forum that’s chock full of techie computer freaks :shock: :lol:

Seriously if the terminology goes flying over your head, please do shout out. It’s always hard to judge an appropriate reply for people we don’t know, especially when using written text.

Mark

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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by richardtoohey » Mon May 18, 2020 11:16 pm

I'm a little bit confused - why the need for the programmers to get dumps of these ROMs?

Are they something special so they can't just be read & saved to disc?

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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by system11 » Tue May 19, 2020 2:19 am

richardtoohey wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:16 pm
I'm a little bit confused - why the need for the programmers to get dumps of these ROMs?

Are they something special so they can't just be read & saved to disc?
They're the way to get a read which can easily be verified several times in a row, with identification of faulty pins, safe in the knowledge that there are no other devices potentially sitting on the bus causing problems, and you don't need to take the lid off your computer. Dumping things in-situ in a system is honestly what you do when there's no other option, very far from optimal.

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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by richardtoohey » Tue May 19, 2020 2:22 am

Thanks - that makes sense. :idea: Thought I was missing something, just not sure what.

And in this case there's quite a collection of ROMs to get through, so would be a bit fiddly trying to get them into a BBC/add-on card etc. one-after-the-other.

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Re: ROMS - lots and lots

Post by Coeus » Tue May 19, 2020 2:42 pm

richardtoohey wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:16 pm
I'm a little bit confused - why the need for the programmers to get dumps of these ROMs?
It's just the easy way to get the dump of the ROM into a PC. It would be equally possible to install the ROM in a BBC micro and use one of the commands to save a sideways ROM/RAM to disc. Then you have to get the resulting file (or files if you try reading multiple times) from the BBC micro to the PC so you can upload for others. That's all possible, of course, as there is UPURS, the various SD card filing systems, Gotek etc.

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