Renovating my original BBC B

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SimonSideburns
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Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:42 pm

I'm doing a spot of renovation on my original BBC Model B.

Some of you may remember one of my first posts to the forum where I introduced myself and my Beeb in a Viglen desktop AT case. I've finally decided to put it back into its original case, which is where it rightfully belongs. Unfortunately, this process will require some work, due to the younger me doing things to get it into the PC case without thinking of the consequences.

Here is an updated list of some of the steps required:
  • Re-cap the PSU. Luckily I've already had a couple of cap kits.
  • Upon gentle removal of the APEX Rom/Ram board (to clean under it), I uncovered the following;
    • The end of one of the pins that get pushed into one of the IC sockets from the bottom of the ROM/RAM board was broken. It had been for some time and the board had always just worked, but I have now managed to get it out of the IC Socket (I pried it out with two old scalpel blades - type 11 with a pointed end) and solder it back onto the board. Only time will tell how successful the repair was.
    • The 5v and ground points on the Beeb board were all connected together (so they could be connected to the PC AT power supply), and in at least one place the spade connector is absent. Anyone have spares? Also I've just noticed the -5v spade connector is missing too. I'd need 3 spade terminals if anyone has them available. Failing that, I'll solder in some wires and put in in-line crimp connectors.
    • The flying leads to the top of the ROM/RAM board were breaking off, so I've taken those off and re-soldered them. It's so easy these days to take a photo on a smartphone and refer to it when reattaching the wires.
  • The Beeb board is filthy, thick with dust. I've tried a toothbrush and a paintbrush, and neither seem to be shifting it. Any suggestions on what to try next?
  • Try and find screws to hold the motherboard down, the ones for the underside of the power supply, and ones for the keyboard (although I hardly ever have those keyboard ones installed these days)
  • I've used a floppy drive connector (34-way IDC connector), removed one row of contact pins (as they weren't needed and then I'd have spares) and used it to repair a keyboard ribbon cable. This is great as I broke the one at ABUG when my Beeb fell off the trolley as I walked in the door on Friday with it. This means I now have two machines and two keyboards that hopefully will be working.
  • I had to straighten up a few of the resistors and other components on the Beeb Board. It seems like they were leaning over just a bit too much and could have been very close to touching other components.
So now I've had to stop while I source some spade terminals. I remember this APEX board is quite close to the main board so I think you are supposed to bend over the lead end of the spade connectors to make sure it fits in. What are the implications, if any, of connecting all three 5v ones together and using only one pair of connectors from the PSU to power the Beeb, or connecting, say, two sets but missing off the third one?

Failing that, I could take the spade connectors out completely and solder the wires from the PSU directly to the board with some in-line crimp terminals.
Just remember kids, Beeb spelled backwards is Beeb!

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:13 pm

Late last evening I had most of the system back together, so to quickly test if it was working or not (no monitor plugged in yet), I briefly powered on, and was rewarded with the CAPS LOCK led turning on, but no accompanying sound. I tweaked the trimmer pot to adjust the sound and we had sound, which I am pleased with.

But, I then attempted to fit one of RetroClinic's ZIF sockets into the ashtray, and while for the most part it went without a hitch, I then tried turning on again and was met with nothing. Possibly a short somewhere.

I then went to bed.

Today I've not looked at it (there's a sprawl of components all over the dining room table), but I may take a peek after a cuppa.
Just remember kids, Beeb spelled backwards is Beeb!

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by Kazzie » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:39 pm

Hi Simon,

Your first posts were well before my time on the forum. I went to have a look for the photos you mentioned, but it turns out that they're no longer available where you'd hosted them (in the "bbc" folder on your website), so they show up as empty images in your old forum post. A quick dive to archive.org gave no joy, either.

I don't suppose you have any pictures to hand of your Beeb in its Vigilen case? Franken-case or otherwise, it intrigues me, and I'd love a look.
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:58 pm

Sure. Here are a couple of the outside, and the inside was quite dusty (these are old photos).

I hope that shows a bit of how it was.
Attachments
Nokia - 20130828-231733.jpg
Nokia - 20130828-232700.jpg
Nokia - 20130828-231020.jpg
Just remember kids, Beeb spelled backwards is Beeb!

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by Kazzie » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:37 pm

That's great, thanks. (Ah, the memories of turbo switches and MHz displays...)

I note the switches you installed on the right hand side for 40/80 track selection. What was the "colours" switch for?
BBC Model B 32k issue 7, Sidewise ROM board with 16K RAM
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:43 pm

Kazzie wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:37 pm
I note the switches you installed on the right hand side for 40/80 track selection. What was the "colours" switch for?
The colours switch was for the Colour Chameleon board (a Micro User Bodybuilding article by Mike Cook) which went between the RGB output and the Monitor. You programmed in (via the User Port) some colours and then, using a look up table, the board would change the colours to any out of a 4096 range (0-15 for each of red, green, and blue). The only drawback was that it couldn't change the flashing colours into solid ones as it was dealing with output only.

For example, if it saw a red signal, it would then look up the contents of some fast RAM and find which values for r, g, and b were stored and output that value instead.

Effectively, it changed the TTL signal into a RGB one. You had to alter some jumpers inside the CUB monitor so it was accepting analogue rather than TTL.

I only recently got myself a CUB monitor (within the last few years) so I added a switch on the back panel and connected that to the jumper pins, so I can now select between analogue and digital without opening the back of the monitor every time.

The reason for the switch (I knew I'd get there eventually) was that playing Snapper with the Chameleon board installed caused the whole screen to blink on and off rapidly while the game was being played. Something to do with Snapper accessing the User Port registers for timing or something. The flashing would stop if you pulled out the ribbon cable from the User Port, which wasn't ideal long-term. My friend who was very much into electronics helped me out by figuring out that if a track was cut on the board and a switch fitted, this flashing could be made to stop. Also, it wasn't really necessary to have the User Port plug left in once you had programmed the colours in, so this switch sort of disables programming.

When you start up the board for the first time, the colours can be set to random values and you then potentially can't see anything. A ROM image was provided that reset the colours to default values upon BREAK or CTRL-BREAK so they were restored to sanity. The only downside is that when you forget to flip the switch back to programming mode before pressing BREAK you end up with some strange colours being programmed, e.g. not the default colours.

The great thing about the Chameleon board was that you could actually play Acornsoft Snooker with a (dark) green ball on a lighter green background, with an almost perfect brown (one of the flashing colours made to flash very fast using *FX 9,1 and *FX 10,1) and more realistic blue and pink 'balls'.
Attachments
Nokia - 20130828-231320.jpg
Nokia - 20130828-231249.jpg
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by Pernod » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:39 pm

SimonSideburns wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:43 pm
When you start up the board for the first time, the colours can be set to random values and you then potentially can't see anything. A ROM image was provided that reset the colours to default values upon BREAK or CTRL-BREAK so they were restored to sanity.
Is the Chameleon ROM available anywhere? Presume it's http://mdfs.net/System/ROMs/Display/Chameleon/ but is a bad link.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:29 pm

Pernod wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:39 pm
Is the Chameleon ROM available anywhere? Presume it's http://mdfs.net/System/ROMs/Display/Chameleon/ but is a bad link.
I thought I had an image of my ROM, but I can't find one. I'll have to fire up the machine with the datacentre plugged in and export it.
Just remember kids, Beeb spelled backwards is Beeb!

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by Pernod » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:23 pm

SimonSideburns wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:29 pm
I thought I had an image of my ROM, but I can't find one. I'll have to fire up the machine with the datacentre plugged in and export it.
I found it, you posted it on a disk image to the Facebook group a few years ago.

This raises a question though, is this the official initialisation ROM provided by Micro User? The ROM is titled COLOUR UTILS 1987 by Hugh Haskell which pre-dates the Chameleon project being published by 3 years!
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:54 pm

It is an interesting question.

Wonder if Mike Cook is contactable. Would he even remember.

Anyway, back to my renovation, here's an update on progress. I briefly had the machine working the other day. It stayed on long enough to determine that the new BeebZif I bought from RetroClinic wasn't working in the Apex ROM/RAM board. I then went to try it in the ROM socket next to the OS chip. I switched on and got a long beep. Removing the BeebZif didn't resolve the issue. Along the way the pitch of the long static sound varies. At one point when the machine was displaying something without beeping, I got it to come up saying Language? so I swapped out the BASIC ROM for another spare one I had with no luck.

I then decided, upon searching online, to strip the machine back to bare minimum to try to identify the issue. A few things have cropped up along the way:
  • I still haven't found the screws that hold the board in the base of the Beeb.
  • One of the lines on the keyboard connector I made up isn't connected. The wire looks to have sheared off just by the IDC bit, but here's the thing - it's at the original connector that I haven't replaced! Swapping the ribbon cable for the one out of my other beeb did't change anything.
  • I've removed the Altair APEX ROM/RAM board and put in the S20, S21 and S22 jumpers. This still didn't get the machine working
  • Taking out all ROMS, chips, and supplementary chips (as documented in BeebWiki), and replacing jumper S9 hasn't solved it.
  • I have a slightly dodgy speaker connector. I can't tell if it's the connector, the plug or the capacitor just above the pins that is at fault. There is evidence of the plug scraping the capacitor a bit over the years. Touching the top of the plug when it is pushed onto the pins can change the level of volume (from completely quiet to the volume I've set the pot at and various levels inbetween).
  • I've tried to change the position of S25 from North to South, and then removed it completely without any change in behaviour
  • One of the chip sockets below the keyboard connector has a red plastic thing in it. Popping off the lid shows a link between two of the socket pins. Is that normal? Other pictures I've seen show a chip there at that point. Is this an 8271 to 1770 thing?
  • Looking at the solder side of the board, it would appear to have had some extensive rework at one point (before I got it). The five chips in front of the modulator have all been socketed, and there are the following RAM chips installed:
    • MOSTEK
    • Hitachi HM4816
    And they seem to be all over the place. I'm not sure what is a good or bad configuration but they seem to have been shoved in randomly.
It seems like I've still got more diagnosing to do. Removing the board from the case might make it easier to look at (especially to check the solder side).


I'm now not even getting a flashing cursor in the top corner of the screen. The CUB monitor is flashing briefly when I switch on/off the power switch on the rear of the Beeb.

Just for completeness, it's an issue 4 board.

Any ideas where I can go from here. I do have the multi-coloured-key Beeb which I can start to swap parts around with (but I'd have to take out the WE ROM Board first which I'd rather not do, but, if needs must then I guess I'll just have to).
Just remember kids, Beeb spelled backwards is Beeb!

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by Pernod » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:55 pm

SimonSideburns wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:54 pm
It is an interesting question.

Wonder if Mike Cook is contactable. Would he even remember.
I've seen a few ROMs out there claiming to be by Hugh Haskell 1987 so suspect it was created using a generic tool to run BASIC programs from ROM.
SimonSideburns wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:43 pm
When you start up the board for the first time, the colours can be set to random values and you then potentially can't see anything. A ROM image was provided that reset the colours to default values upon BREAK or CTRL-BREAK so they were restored to sanity. The only downside is that when you forget to flip the switch back to programming mode before pressing BREAK you end up with some strange colours being programmed, e.g. not the default colours.
Is this correct? I'm not seeing the ROM initialise the palette on BREAK. I have to blindly type *Init (case-sensitive).
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:04 pm

Pernod wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:55 pm
Is this correct? I'm not seeing the ROM initialise the palette on BREAK. I have to blindly type *Init (case-sensitive).
Yes, I'm pretty sure about it.

I wonder what the magazine at the time of the Bodybuilding article says on the matter.

I'll take another copy of the ROM when I get chance (my focus is on this other machine right now).
Just remember kids, Beeb spelled backwards is Beeb!

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by Pernod » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:13 pm

SimonSideburns wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:04 pm
I wonder what the magazine at the time of the Bodybuilding article says on the matter.
From Micro User:
On switch on the memory will contain random values. This will produce a strange mapping of colours and might not be readable until you run Listing I. As an alternative there is an optional initialisation rom to program the Chameleon to the default automatically on power up.
Sounds like it should. Maybe COLOUR UTILS is a different ROM, or maybe I have an emulation issue.
SimonSideburns wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:04 pm
I'll take another copy of the ROM when I get chance (my focus is on this other machine right now).
Thanks.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:08 pm

I am almost giving up on this board.

I struggled most of the day with nothing but the first 'beep' or more precisely random sound, and couldn't get further, so out of desperation I took out the 6502 and re-seated it, to briefly once again be met with a boot up screen, albeit still with the random noise on the speaker and still with a Language? prompt, which was hardly surprising as I didn't have BASIC in at that point.

I switched off, plugged in BASIC and lo and behold... I'm back to a completely blank screen with no flashing cursor, and still only the first burrrrp sound.

I've taken BASIC back out and still, nothing.

Must be a dodgy solder joint or a break in the board that is intermittent (and connects occasionally enough just to get my hopes up).

Every time I think I'm almost there something comes along to tell me I'm not.

I will keep going with this. It will not beat me.

My machine from back in the day (well, 1990ish) will work well again.
Just remember kids, Beeb spelled backwards is Beeb!

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by Wheel_nut » Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:32 pm

SimonSideburns wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:08 pm
..... I took out the 6502 and re-seated it, to briefly once again be met with a boot up screen, albeit still with the random noise on the speaker and still with a Language? prompt, which was hardly surprising as I didn't have BASIC in at that point.

I switched off, plugged in BASIC and lo and behold... I'm back to a completely blank screen with no flashing cursor, and still only the first burrrrp sound.

I've taken BASIC back out and still, nothing.

Must be a dodgy solder joint or a break in the board that is intermittent (and connects occasionally enough just to get my hopes up).
Being an Issue 4 Board, I would suspect that you have (a) severed leg(s) on the CPU Socket, between the socket and the Board.
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:41 pm

Wheel_nut wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:32 pm
Being an Issue 4 Board, I would suspect that you have (a) severed leg(s) on the CPU Socket, between the socket and the Board.
I will bear that in mind but I'm unsure how to proceed. I guess I could beep out the socket with my multimeter.

One other thing I've noticed while looking at the solder side of the board. Whoever 'repaired' (I use the term loosely) the board soldered in a new keyboard connector, but barely pushed the pins through the board before soldering them. I wasn't happy with that so I've desoldered that and now I'm putting in a new row of pins that will stick through well enough for soldering. It might not have been the problem, but at least I'll know it definitely won't be an issue now.
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:14 pm

Well, she lives. All I ended up doing was changing the keyboard connector on the board and now it's up and running.

I'm not totally sure it's fixed completely (some strange rising background noise on the speaker, for example), so before I start adding stuff back in I want to do some more checking, but I'm quite happy.

Oh, and instead of plugging in BASIC I plugged in the BeebZif and that works too (I never doubted iit). I tested BeebZIF by plugging in BASIC and I was able to type in a small program without incident.

Isn't that dandy.
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:50 pm

I knew I was being too hasty when saying the machine works.

It mostly works, and I was getting annoyed by the lack of ROM sockets on a stock beeb so I tried plugging back in the APEX ROM/RAM board, which involved taking back out the 6502 CPU and 1770DFS board, plugging in the board and putting those two in the board, and re-configuring the jumpers.

All I kept getting was the single beep, but I was getting the flashing cursor this time.

As soon as I took the APEX board back out and put it back to stock, it was working fine again.

I'm thinking I'm going to leave the Apex board out of this machine for now, and I might swap over with the WE one that is in my other Beeb, or I might just not bother for now.

I do need to get the DataCentre working on this machine now, as I have taken some dumps of ROMS onto a real floppy, then when I was running out of room on side 0 I moved the files over to side 2, then carried on dumping, but then a short while later when trying to catalogue side 2, all I got was a Disk Error. Grrr.

So, by plugging in the DataCentre I will be able to save the files onto a virtual floppy drive and back the disk up to the USB stick without worrying about DDFS and actual floppies.
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by flaxcottage » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:13 pm

In place of the ROM expansion board have you considered the Boobip boards. They fit in the existing ROM sockets and are the size of ROMs. I have several of these and they are quite brilliant. There is a non-volatile EEPROM board which holds 4 x 16K ROMs and a ROM/RAM board which can hold 32k ROMs and has 32K SWR.

I have decked one of my Beebs with a full set so that I have 64K SWR and all the rest as ROMs. Apart from BASIC and DNFS, ADFS and GXR (which are in 32K PROMs)all the other ROMs can be over-written as desired as well as loading ROM images into the SWR banks.

Instead of a Datacentre, had you considered a GOTEK floppy emulator? They work as a virtual floppy drive and can save images to USB memory sticks in SSD, DSD or ADL format.

Anyway good luck with your restoration. :D
- John

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:19 pm

SimonSideburns wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:04 pm
Pernod wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:55 pm
Is this correct? I'm not seeing the ROM initialise the palette on BREAK. I have to blindly type *Init (case-sensitive).
Yes, I'm pretty sure about it.

I wonder what the magazine at the time of the Bodybuilding article says on the matter.

I'll take another copy of the ROM when I get chance (my focus is on this other machine right now).
Well I ended up plugging in the DataCentre and the RamFS ROM and spent some time archiving ROMs and Eproms this afternoon/evening.

I have quite a collection. I don't know whether they are of any use to anyone but I'll enclose them in two double sided 80 track floppies. I've labelled them ROMSAVE1.dsd and ROMSAVE2.dsd, and if you insert file 1 in drive 0/2 and file 2 in drive 1/3 you'll see all the ROMS I've dumped.

If you've inserted the files into the emulator or a DataCentre as I've suggested, the Colour Chameleon ROM is on Side 3.

Here's a list of contents:

Code: Select all

Side 0
------
!boot - Exec file to run C.ROMSAVE
C.ROMSAVE - Program using ADT ROM to save ROM dumps
BGS 1.0 (Bitstik control)
TORCH COMPUTERS LTD CCCP 0.94 (C)1983
TORCH COMPUTERS LTD MCP 0.41 (C)1983
ACORNSOFT PASCAL C
ACORNSOFT PASCAL I
INSTAT R-B00735
SYS 1 1.32C 17130 12.03.87 } These don't seem to be valid sideways ROMS but
SYS 2 1.32C 17131 12.03.87 } they do have contents
SYS 1 2.5K 19976 24/3/88
SJ CONTROL ROM 0.23
UNITERM 1989

Side 2
------
Couple of other versions of Uniterm
Something else I forget exactly what

Side 1
------
WE ADDER S/N 1354
AMX (Mouse)
BUFFER
EDWORD 2.0E
KERMIT 1.45
BBC PASCAL V2.0
Pull Down Ram Driver (A Bodybuilding article in The Micro User)
PLOTTER ED BRYAN 6/2/86
UNITERM
View A3.0
WORKSTATION 1.4 (C)1983 UNIVERSITY OF SUSSEX Rom No. 0135 FT

Side 3
------
Aid
Basic Editor 1.32
Beebase 1.02
Chameleon Colour ROM 1.0
InterChart 1.01
AMX MAX
AMX Page Maker Plus 1.7
RomIt 1.01
SCIWAYS 2.01
Support 4.00 } For Morley Teletext
ATS 2.59     } Adaptor
WordWise 1.1
Hope that helps.

EDIT: New images containing full ROMs. I also couldn't find the second (SYS 2 2.5K) so that is missing.
Attachments
ROMSAVE2.DSD
Side 1/3 (a couple of files renamed)
(400 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
ROMSAVE1.DSD
Side 0/2 (a few files now on side 2)
(400 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
Last edited by SimonSideburns on Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by flaxcottage » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:43 am

Are these disc images protected? They do not appear to be visible. :twisted: :lol:
- John

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:19 pm

flaxcottage wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:43 am
Are these disc images protected? They do not appear to be visible. :twisted: :lol:
Ah yes, well as I was drifting off to sleep last night, a strange doubt entered my mind.

Little did I know that I'd forgotten the attachments.

I've now edited the comment.
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by Pernod » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:54 pm

SimonSideburns wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:19 pm

Code: Select all

Side 0
------
!boot - Exec file to run C.ROMSAVE
C.ROMSAVE - Program using ADT ROM to save ROM dumps
BGS 1.0 (Bitstik control)
TORCH COMPUTERS LTD CCCP 0.94 (C)1983
TORCH COMPUTERS LTD MCP 0.41 (C)1983
ACORNSOFT PASCAL C
ACORNSOFT PASCAL I
INSTAT R-B00735
SYS 1 1.32C 17130 12.03.87 } These don't seem to be valid sideways ROMS but
SYS 2 1.32C 17131 12.03.87 } they do have contents
SYS 1 2.5K 19976 24/3/88
SJ CONTROL ROM 0.23
UNITERM 1989

Side 2
------
Intentionally blank

Side 1
------
WE ADDER S/N 1354
AMX (Mouse)
BUFFER
EDWORD 2.0E
KERMIT 1.45
BBC PASCAL V2.0
Pull Down Ram Driver (A Bodybuilding article in The Micro User)
PLOTTER ED BRYAN 6/2/86
UNITERM
View A3.0
WORKSTATION 1.4 (C)1983 UNIVERSITY OF SUSSEX Rom No. 0135 FT

Side 3
------
Aid
Basic Editor 1.32
Beebase 1.02
Chameleon Colour ROM 1.0
InterChart 1.01
AMX MAX
AMX Page Maker Plus 1.7
RomIt 1.01
SCIWAYS 2.01
Support 4.00 } For Morley Teletext
ATS 2.59     } Adaptor
WordWise 1.1
Thanks for these, there's certainly some interesting and previously unavailable amongst them.

Here's my preliminary findings:
Beebase 1.02 - previously undumped version.
Chameleon Colour ROM 1.0 - awesome!
SJ CONTROL ROM 0.23 - seen this before but wasn't sure what it was, you've confirmed this is the SJ Research Control ROM.
SYS 1/2 - any idea where these came from? They look interleaved so maybe from a 16bit machine.
TORCH COMPUTERS LTD MCP 0.41 (C)1983 - differs from previously dumped version.

Many of the 16K ROMs differ from existing dumps by a single byte, the last byte is always &00, so I'm having to conclude many are bad dumps. I may request some to be redumped, but let me spend some more time going through them to see what's missing.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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SimonSideburns
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:29 pm

Pernod wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:54 pm
Thanks for these, there's certainly some interesting and previously unavailable amongst them.

Here's my preliminary findings:
Beebase 1.02 - previously undumped version.
Chameleon Colour ROM 1.0 - awesome!
SJ CONTROL ROM 0.23 - seen this before but wasn't sure what it was, you've confirmed this is the SJ Research Control ROM.
SYS 1/2 - any idea where these came from? They look interleaved so maybe from a 16bit machine.
TORCH COMPUTERS LTD MCP 0.41 (C)1983 - differs from previously dumped version.

Many of the 16K ROMs differ from existing dumps by a single byte, the last byte is always &00, so I'm having to conclude many are bad dumps. I may request some to be redumped, but let me spend some more time going through them to see what's missing.
The commands I used to make the dumps are in the C.ROMSAVE BASIC program. Is there anything there that would suggest an issue? I don't know how the *MOVE command (from ADT) works so I just used it without checking if it worked well or not. I could add a byte or two to the *MOVE command if required, as that won't affect the amount saved by the *SAVE command, and give it another go.

I have no idea about the source of the SYS roms. There's a fourth one I didn't make a copy of, so I'll attempt to grab that at some point too. The whole box of ICs came as one lot a while back (although I can't remember where from exactly - maybe from a boot sale or something).

I've had them for years. Probably from before I moved to Birmingham and then came back, so that dates them coming into my possession to before 2000 most likely.

The fact that some of them are from the University of Sussex, etc. would show them to be from an Educational background.
Just remember kids, Beeb spelled backwards is Beeb!

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Pernod
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by Pernod » Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:45 pm

SimonSideburns wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:29 pm
The commands I used to make the dumps are in the C.ROMSAVE BASIC program. Is there anything there that would suggest an issue? I don't know how the *MOVE command (from ADT) works so I just used it without checking if it worked well or not. I could add a byte or two to the *MOVE command if required, as that won't affect the amount saved by the *SAVE command, and give it another go.
Change your command to "MOVE 8000+4000 3000 ", or change BFFF to C000, this is where the byte is missing. You're not the first to make this mistake as there are plenty of other similarly bad dumps out there that need wiping from the web.
SimonSideburns wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:29 pm
I have no idea about the source of the SYS roms. There's a fourth one I didn't make a copy of, so I'll attempt to grab that at some point too. The whole box of ICs came as one lot a while back (although I can't remember where from exactly - maybe from a boot sale or something).
I was going to ask about a fourth ROM, as it's probably the other half of SYS1250. There is text in the file but missing every other character which will be in the undumped ROM, it'll hopefully give me a clue as to what they are. Text looks like something from "Digital Equipment Limited" if that gives any clues?

Could you redump the following?
SYS 1 1.32C 17130 12.03.87 } These don't seem to be valid sideways ROMS but
SYS 2 1.32C 17131 12.03.87 } they do have contents
SYS 1 2.5K 19976 24/3/88
BBC PASCAL V2.0
Support 4.00 } For Morley Teletext

Apart from those listed above there were 9 new dumps amongst them, so a worthwhile exercise.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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SimonSideburns
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:35 pm

Pernod wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:45 pm
SimonSideburns wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:29 pm
The commands I used to make the dumps are in the C.ROMSAVE BASIC program. Is there anything there that would suggest an issue? I don't know how the *MOVE command (from ADT) works so I just used it without checking if it worked well or not. I could add a byte or two to the *MOVE command if required, as that won't affect the amount saved by the *SAVE command, and give it another go.
Change your command to "MOVE 8000+4000 3000 ", or change BFFF to C000, this is where the byte is missing. You're not the first to make this mistake as there are plenty of other similarly bad dumps out there that need wiping from the web.
That is an annoying thing, but useful to know for the future.

I'm at the machine now and will re-do the files. It won't take too long as it's quite a quick procedure.
Just remember kids, Beeb spelled backwards is Beeb!

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:31 pm

I've been through those ROMs and saved the full file on all of them.

I've also added a couple of files on side 2, and renamed a couple of files.

I've updated both the attachments in the post a few above.

I couldn't find ROM 2 of the SYS 2.5K, so it's likely I didn't have it at all. There's not even a label in the bottom of the box which has fallen off (I checked)!
Just remember kids, Beeb spelled backwards is Beeb!

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Pernod
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by Pernod » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:28 pm

SimonSideburns wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:31 pm
I've been through those ROMs and saved the full file on all of them.
Thanks, all look good now. Shame about the missing SYS2250, probably from some DEC terminal.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by SimonSideburns » Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:32 pm

I took the two rom files SYS1132 and SYS2132 and using a small BASIC program I opened both for input, a third file for output and interleaved them into the output file.

I was annoyed at the end of that that the resulting file still appeared to contain random data, and no obvious readable text.

I didn't look at the third file to see if there appeared to be more recognisable text, but I'm not holding up much hope.
Just remember kids, Beeb spelled backwards is Beeb!

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Pernod
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Re: Renovating my original BBC B

Post by Pernod » Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:55 pm

SimonSideburns wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 1:32 pm
I took the two rom files SYS1132 and SYS2132 and using a small BASIC program I opened both for input, a third file for output and interleaved them into the output file.
Did exactly the same but with a Python script. There's definitely text in the third file, but missing every other letter.
- Nigel

BBC Model B: ATPL Sidewise, Acorn Speech, 2xWatford Floppy Drives, AMX Mouse, Viglen case, BeebZIF, etc.

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