what's the use of Mode 0

discuss both original and modern hardware for the bbc micro/electron
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Viper21
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what's the use of Mode 0

Post by Viper21 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:44 am

other than being used for ASM
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hoglet
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by hoglet » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:52 am

Viper21 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:44 am
other than being used for ASM
Word processing?

Spreadsheets?

Databases?

Anything that needs higher resolution graphics (i.e. 640x256 rather than 320x256)?

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cmorley
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by cmorley » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:09 am

80 column text.

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flaxcottage
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by flaxcottage » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:44 am

CAD?
- John

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johnkenyon
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by johnkenyon » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:42 am

cmorley wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:09 am
80 column text.
You can do that in Mode 3.

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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by jgharston » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:49 am

johnkenyon wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:42 am
cmorley wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:09 am
80 column text.
You can do that in Mode 3.
Full-screen 80-column text.
80-column text with graphics.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.32
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2020
>_

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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by lurkio » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:57 am

Game title screens converted from dodgy sources.

1.png
http://bbcmicro.co.uk/game.php?id=2026

:wink:
Last edited by lurkio on Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by Lardo Boffin » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:16 am

Nice image!
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1024MAK
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by 1024MAK » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:12 pm

The real purpose of MODE 0 is to have one of the highest graphics screens on a Beeb compared to contemporary competitors home computers...

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AndyF
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by AndyF » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:33 pm

Spreadsheet or similar / database type listing would be my thought on it. :)

A tongue-in-cheek comment here would be to say "to annoy people who used RF out with a standard TV" as the ghosting effect/quality was not brilliant in M0, hampered in some cases by slightly iffy and ancient television sets. :lol: :oops:
Last edited by AndyF on Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by kieranhj » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:38 pm

Making lovely hi-res copper colours on a Beeb? :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=15300#p207230
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by danielj » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:40 pm

Alas, people, Viper21 was a reincarnation of a user who was previously banned for trolling. Suffice to say this was another one of his lo-fi attempts and he's been banned again.
Last edited by danielj on Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tricky
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by tricky » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:50 pm

Or to run games at their native resolution http://bbcmicro.co.uk/game.php?id=3027 ;)

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jonb
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by jonb » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:25 pm

1024MAK wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:12 pm
The real purpose of MODE 0 is to have one of the highest graphics screens on a Beeb compared to contemporary competitors home computers...

Mark
This.

I well remember the excitement it caused. Little did we know there would be no memory left to use it!

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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by kieranhj » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:46 pm

danielj wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:40 pm
Alas, people, Viper21 was a reincarnation of a user who was previously banned for trolling. Suffice to say this was another one of his lo-fi attempts and he's been banned again.
That’s a shame (the trolling, not the banning) because it’s a genuinely interesting question and I do consider MODE 0 to be one of the Beeb’s more defining features. I’ve often pondered what a MODE 0 only demo might be.

I remember at one early ABUG I attended, flynnjs explained to me more about how PAL TVs work and I realised that the weird yellow and purple strobing you sometimes get in MODE 0 on a low-res TV is the same effect as ‘artefact colour’ on an Apple II, albeit completely uncontrollable. Cue a short and abortive attempt to overclock his Model B with the PAL crystal which survived all of about 10 seconds before overheating. :lol:
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by RobC » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:36 pm

I always assumed that it was for word processing and spreadsheets as the dot-matrix printers around at the time were 80-column. If you wanted your micro to be considered as a "serious" machine for business use, it had to be capable of producing an 80-column display. (c.f. this video by the 8-bit guy).

I thought that the BBC must have stipulated that it should be capable of producing a proper 80-column display (i.e. not using squashed 4-pixel characters as seen on lesser platforms :D ) but, looking at the outline spec, they only said this was preferable and could be an optional extra.

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1024MAK
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by 1024MAK » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:57 pm

Don’t forget there is also MODE 3...

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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by steve3000 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:17 am

RobC wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:36 pm
looking at the outline spec, they only said this was preferable and could be an optional extra.
Although I've not read the spec, you could argue that MODE 0 was an optional extra, since it was not present on the Model A...?

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Diminished
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by Diminished » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:29 am

AndyF wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:33 pm
A tongue-in-cheek comment here would be to say "to annoy people who used RF out with a standard TV" as the ghosting effect/quality was not brilliant in M0, hampered in some cases by slightly iffy and ancient television sets. :lol: :oops:
A slightly less tongue-in-cheek comment would be "to annoy people who 32K-upgraded early Model As that had been shipped with 'bad-yield' Video ULA parts deliberately left out of Model Bs."

The struggle was real.

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jonb
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by jonb » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:29 am

Just thinking about it for a moment.. with a co-processor and Mode 0 on a decent monitor you could do all sorts of business like things without worrying about the memory constraints I alluded to. In other words, one might say the purpose of Mode 0 is to facilitate more professional uses of the machine.

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1024MAK
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by 1024MAK » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:47 pm

jonb wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:29 am
Just thinking about it for a moment.. with a co-processor and Mode 0 on a decent monitor you could do all sorts of business like things without worrying about the memory constraints I alluded to. In other words, one might say the purpose of Mode 0 is to facilitate more professional uses of the machine.
Oh Jon, you’re spoiled the fun by coming out with a very sensible and logical answer #-o

Of course that is exactly what MODEs 0 and 3 are designed for, professional productive applications.

If you have a BBC B (or Master) with a dual floppy drive and a second processor, then that is equivalent to some business computers that Acorn produced. See Acorn Business Computer and Acorn Cambridge Workstation...

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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by Coeus » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:19 am

1024MAK wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:47 pm
If you have a BBC B (or Master) with a dual floppy drive and a second processor, then that is equivalent to some business computers that Acorn produced. See Acorn Business Computer and Acorn Cambridge Workstation...
I suppose with a long-term plan based on 2nd processors and, according to Steve Furber, this had been the plan before they suddenly focused on the BBC contract, the high use of memory would not be a worry but for anyone who would be tempted to use the BBC standalone for some kind of professional application it seems surprising that there was not a 80 column text-only character mapped rather than bitmapped mode, i.e. similar to the way the teletext mode worked and exactly the arrangement the 6845 was originally designed for.

Given the teletext it would be an obvious candidate to consider. Would it not go fast enough for 80 columns?

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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by DutchAcorn » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:27 am

Coeus wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:19 am
...

Given the teletext it would be an obvious candidate to consider. Would it not go fast enough for 80 columns?
This was discussed before in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13177&p=209101
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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by sydney » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:29 am

80 column teletext rang a bell so I googled it and it guess where it pointed me?

Here

EDIT: Damn! DutchAcorn beat me to it! And my link didn't work!
Last edited by sydney on Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: what's the use of Mode 0

Post by jonb » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:22 am

1024MAK wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:47 pm

Oh Jon, you’re spoiled the fun by coming out with a very sensible and logical answer #-o
That'll be a first, then.

:lol:

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