Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

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Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by jasonl » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:52 pm

Hi All,

Since deciding on getting a Model B for another project, I learnt about the Hybrid Music system, and got fascinated with it thanks to the excellent archives of material on Chris's Acorns and Colin Frazer's website, and the info on Hoglet's FPGA thread. The examples sound really cool. 8)

As the Music 5000 seem to be somewhat rare, I thought I'd have a go at transcribing it into Kicad with the aim of making a clone PCB to add to my BBC system. I got the schematic copied and now working on laying out the PCB based on photos of the original - this has allowed me to correct some errors in my schematic.
M5xxx-WIP.png
There's a way to go, but I'm more than half way laying out the tracks.

The aim is to allow the same PCB to be configured with jumpers to be either a Music 5000 or 3000 board so two can be stacked for a complete system, with the possibilty of sharing the same power circuitry and stereo output.

For safety, I'll be changing the power circuit to be powered by an external 15V AC-AC adapter, with 7815/7915 voltage regulators to provide the power for the DAC and opamps. The 5V supply for the digital side would be via a Recom switcher. The power circuit should be enough to power both PCBs in a 5000/3000 system.

At the moment it's very much a personal project - but if it's successful it'd be nice to be able to do a PCB run for anyone interested in making one. All the LS series logic ICs are available (I had about half in my bits box), and the 6070 DAC and memory ICs are available from UtSource for a reasonable price.

Looking over some of the manuals, I'm excited to have a play with the software suite and make some noise with it. :D

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by jasonl » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:14 am

It's alive! :D

Got a few prototype PCBs made and built it up.
IMGP0955.JPG
Music5000 Clone PCB
The memory ICs and 6070 DAC were supplied NOS from Utsource. All other parts are currently available.

I made a slight error on the power input, forgot to tie one side of the wall-wart supply to ground. Nothing a jumper wire couldn't fix. It's running on a 0.5A 15V AC-AC wall wart. 7815 and 7915 regulators provide +15V/-15V for the analogue section, and a 7805 pinout compatible switching module provides 5V for the digital side. Audio output is via a 3.5mm stereo jack.

Some observations:

With the original spec 74LS ICs it's drawing about 400mA off the wall-wart, and the chips get quite warm. As an experiment I replaced about a dozen of the 74LS chips with 74HC equivalents I had in my parts store - and it appears to still function OK, but now draws about 300mA, and they don't get so warm. So I would expect that power consumption could be halved if all the LS ICs are replaced with HC versions. The heat could be an issue as I'd like to enclose a couple of the boards in a 3d printed enclosure, so if it's possible to run cooler that's a bonus.

I found the original output filter was totally killing the frequencies above 10kHz, making it sound somewhat woolly on my monitor speakers. Removing them leads to a more detailed sound. I need to sit down and do the filter calculations to see if the original circuit matches this observation. Maybe select some capacitors to roll the audio off closer to 20kHz.

I've built up a second board configured as an M3000 extender in order to stack on the first M5000 - but I've not yet been able to make it function. :? I'm not sure I've implemented the selection jumpers correctly - or I may simply have the wrong software loaded... more experimentation needed.

Also I'm unsure about the M500/M5000 mod resistor - (4K7 or 10K in series between the 1MhzE bus clock, and the E signal on the M5000 schematic). With it in place, it doesn't work on my Model B, loading down the 1Mhz signal so much that the device is unable to read the 1Mhz clock... With the resistor replaced by a wire link, all is well. The Music 5000 PCB photos are unclear here, as some traces are hidden by the bus cable and IC34... so it's possible I've made an error in extrapolating the mod. Or it could also be a weakness in the IC on my beeb that creates the 1Mhz signal....

Attached are a couple of samples from the Music5000 system disk - these were made with the filter capacitors removed.

Next steps - get the M3000 version working and another set of prototype boards fixing the issues I've found. Then to make the Midi output board to attach to the top of the stack. :D
Attachments
InConcert-Music500Clone-NoCaps.mp3
(1.61 MiB) Downloaded 65 times
Pachelbel-Music500Clone-NoCaps.mp3
(2.58 MiB) Downloaded 72 times

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by Elminster » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:43 am

Good work so far.

What is your ultimate plan? Were you going to release the kicad so people can order boards, supply bare PCB only, do kits, do full builds? Or all the above, none of the above, something else?

I can add to the hardware list if in some way this will be available for people in some form.

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by pixelblip » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:44 am

Oh that is amazing. I've not been able to get my hands on a 5000. You are our last hope Obi Wan! =D>
It would be amazing to be able to use it with a Raspberry Pi.....if that is at all possible..........well done though - great effort.
Last edited by pixelblip on Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by BobsBoard » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:49 am

Oh my, this is good work. The sounds are fantastic. could you share the BoM so I can see what I have in the box and what I need to price? I assume at some point you will be selling the PCB's ? I want one !!
Regards.
BBC-A Series 3, upgraded to B by me in 1984), with Watford 13 Rom Board and 8271 DFS. BBC B Series 4 (8271) with 4x28c256 mod. BBC Series 7 with 1770DFS all running SPI-MMC

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by jasonl » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:27 pm

Thanks!

I haven't got much of a plan other than make a working M5000/M3000 and Midi controller system for myself. :D But once I've verified it's all working I want to release the Kicad files, and if there's interest I don't mind doing a PCB run with the Ram chips and 6070 IC to go with them.

Don't forget the cheaper/simpler/smaller versions made using the dp11's 1Mhz bus to Raspi implementation viewtopic.php?t=15848 and Hoglet's FPGA version. I just like doing stuff old-school. :D

Here's a provisional BOM with the components less connectors/jacks.
music5xxx-bom.pdf
Provisional BOM
(38.68 KiB) Downloaded 46 times

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by simoni » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:33 pm

With the original spec 74LS ICs it's drawing about 400mA off the wall-wart, and the chips get quite warm. As an experiment I replaced about a dozen of the 74LS chips with 74HC equivalents I had in my parts store - and it appears to still function OK, but now draws about 300mA, and they don't get so warm.
Just a note really, but 74HC are usually, but not always, compatible with the 74LS as the HC use CMOS levels. I imagine that the original M5000 is TTL level rather than CMOS so, if you replace all the 74LS chips with 74HCT versions you should have no issues at all, just a cooler running M5000 that uses less power.

Awesome work by the way! :)

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by danielj » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:53 pm

This sounds glorious :) I think I might have to build one to M3000 my M5000!!!
d.

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by danielj » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:56 pm

FWIW - I just played InConcert through the same speakers I normally play my M5000 through, and it was noticeably sharper...
Last edited by danielj on Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by leenew » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:58 pm

Do you mean more "shrill" Daniel? or a semitone up?

Lee.

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by BobsBoard » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:32 pm

jasonl wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:27 pm
Here's a provisional BOM with the components less connectors/jacks.
Many thanks
BBC-A Series 3, upgraded to B by me in 1984), with Watford 13 Rom Board and 8271 DFS. BBC B Series 4 (8271) with 4x28c256 mod. BBC Series 7 with 1770DFS all running SPI-MMC

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by danielj » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:53 pm

leenew wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:58 pm
Do you mean more "shrill" Daniel? or a semitone up?

Lee.
Hahaha... No, more definition and less muffled.

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by leenew » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:55 pm

:-k 8-[ :-({|= \:D/ :lol:

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by jasonl » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:26 pm

simoni wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:33 pm
With the original spec 74LS ICs it's drawing about 400mA off the wall-wart, and the chips get quite warm. As an experiment I replaced about a dozen of the 74LS chips with 74HC equivalents I had in my parts store - and it appears to still function OK, but now draws about 300mA, and they don't get so warm.
Just a note really, but 74HC are usually, but not always, compatible with the 74LS as the HC use CMOS levels. I imagine that the original M5000 is TTL level rather than CMOS so, if you replace all the 74LS chips with 74HCT versions you should have no issues at all, just a cooler running M5000 that uses less power.

Awesome work by the way! :)
Thanks for the tip! :D I may just specify 74HCT ICs when I come to finalise the BOM.

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by jasonl » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:06 pm

danielj wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:56 pm
FWIW - I just played InConcert through the same speakers I normally play my M5000 through, and it was noticeably sharper...
Thanks for the verification. :)

I've been playing around with the filter today. The original filter has a cut-off frequency of about 3.2kHz - using the 15K resistors and 3n3 caps. Doing away with the filter caps completely seems to make the sound a little harsh, and perhaps introduces some digital noise into the sound that the filter is designed to mask.

So I've experimented with changing the resistors to 10K and 3n3 capacitors to 1n to give a filter cut-off of around 16kHz. The 22nF capacitors (C13,C14,C19,C20) in the circuit seem to cut down some noise/distortion so I left them in for now. This seems to give a sharper sound than the original, but smooths off some of the harshness of the version without the filter capacitors.

Attached are "In Concert" and "Pachelbel" recorded with the revised filter. The 'piano' sound of Pachelbel sounds a bit smoother to me, than the version without the caps.

I suppose back in the day home recorders didn't have the frequency response as today's PCM devices, so perhaps the design decision to have such a low cut-off frequency was reasonable. Or maybe Hybrid just had a bucket-full of 15K resistors and 3.3nF capacitors to use up... :)
Attachments
m5000-filter.png
in-concert-revised-filter.mp3
(1.64 MiB) Downloaded 33 times
pachelbel-revised-filter.mp3
(2.54 MiB) Downloaded 39 times

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by jasonl » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:03 pm

A second board built and debugged (helps if you don't put an 74LS08 into a socket needing a 74LS00 :wink: ).
5xxx-stacked-m3000-test.jpg
It shares the power supply components of the lower PCB, and the audio output is simply passively mixed with the other output. On the revised prototype I'll break out the switched connections on the audio jack - so it can be mixed by default, but if a jack is inserted on the M3000 board the audio can be mixed separately or sent to different speakers. Making the Beeb a quadraphonic synth, perhaps. :D

I needed to debug the M3000 configuration jumpers - looks like description of converting an M5000 to M3000 at https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/co ... -Expander/ is slightly wrong. The jumper wires go to the correct pins, but the signal descriptors are wrong. IC32 pin7 is 1MHz bus D5, and IC32 pin 13 is 1MHz bus D6 not D4 and D5 as stated on the page.

So converting an M5000 to M3000 simply means sending 1MHz bus D6 to IC14 pin 1, and 1MHz bus D5 to IC35 pin 10. On an M5000 D6 goes to IC35 pin 10 and D5 to IC14 pin 1.

I also believe the additional 220nF capacitors are not necessary for the M3000 mod, but I think they are part of the timing modification required for the M5000 to work on a B+ or Master. With them in place (like the 4K7 or 10K additional resistor) the synth doesn't work on my model B.

Anyway, I've attached a quick recording of the M3000 mix of Chariots of Fire. :D
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Chariots-M3000-version.mp3
(4.66 MiB) Downloaded 85 times

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by pixelblip » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:14 pm

It sounds so crystal clear Jason! It would be so good if you could start to sell these :)
Last edited by pixelblip on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by paulv » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:17 pm

jasonl wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:03 pm
I needed to debug the M3000 configuration jumpers - looks like description of converting an M5000 to M3000 at https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/page.cfm/co ... -Expander/ is slightly wrong. The jumper wires go to the correct pins, but the signal descriptors are wrong. IC32 pin7 is 1MHz bus D5, and IC32 pin 13 is 1MHz bus D6 not D4 and D5 as stated on the page.
Good catch, page updated.
jasonl wrote: I also believe the additional 220nF capacitors are not necessary for the M3000 mod, but I think they are part of the timing modification required for the M5000 to work on a B+ or Master. With them in place (like the 4K7 or 10K additional resistor) the synth doesn't work on my model B.
That's odd. None of my 5000's have all those extra caps on but they do have the timing resistor mod. The 3000 has everything changed with the timing mod, patch wires as documented and extra caps...

Paul
Last edited by paulv on Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by jasonl » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:31 pm

paulv wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:17 pm
Good catch, page updated.
Thanks Paul - and thanks, too, for an invaluable resource!
paulv wrote: That's odd. None of my 5000's have all those extra caps on but they do have the timing resistor mod. The 3000 has everything changed with the timing mod, patch wires as documented and extra caps...
OK - I stand corrected! I've got space on the PCB for them, but things seem to be working OK without them. I also can't get the synth to work with the timing mod on my B - it can't be right that back in the day the M5000 with the mod wasn't compatible with the B, so it's possible that I've missed something regarding it. Puzzling.

I've been working from photos of the M500, and extrapolating what the mods are. It looks simple enough... but turns the 1MhzE signal into an attenuated triangle wave that fails to clock IC31 and IC34B. The resistor is R37 in my schematic.
TimingMod.png
I'll play around a little more. :)
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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by jasonl » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:37 pm

pixelblip wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:14 pm
It sounds so crystal clear Jason! It would be so good if you could start to sell these :)
Thanks for your encouragement. Some more work and testing required, but I'm pleased with the results so far. It's a really cool synth. 8)

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by danielj » Sun Apr 28, 2019 6:48 pm

jasonl wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:03 pm
Anyway, I've attached a quick recording of the M3000 mix of Chariots of Fire. :D
I love that squelchy bass :)

d.

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by jasonl » Thu May 02, 2019 9:53 am

Now for the M2000 Midi controller.

It's based on Colin Fraser's reverse engineered schematic available at: http://www.colinfraser.com/m5000/m5000.htm with an additional 74HCT08 to drive activity LEDs from the Midi outputs for the extra bling that was on the original. It's designed to stack with my M5000 PCB, and to share its 5V supply. It's 100x150mm, and the Midi ports are mounted on the side, so will be positioned facing to the right if the synth PCBs are next to the computer, or to the front if it's sitting on top of the case.
music2xxx.png
Midi PCB render
Just waiting on the prototype PCB. Looking forward to getting the Beeb controlling other instruments. :D

Also in the same batch is a revised M5000/3000 PCB that fixes a couple of errors on the first prototype, and refines the layout of some of the connectors.

Stay tuned... :)

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by pixelblip » Mon May 06, 2019 10:26 am

This is so exciting. The work yourself,BigEd and Hoglet are doing to bring back this cool synth is great. Hopefully we can get more music coming out for it in due course. I can’t wait to see what happens.Thank you for your hard work and effort. I am going to get me a real Beeb me thinks :D
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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad

Post by jasonl » Sun May 19, 2019 1:17 am

I've got the revised PCB for the 5000 clone. It works as well as the first, but can be configured as an M3000 extender without bodge wires. :) I've been using 74HCT ICs in place of the 74LS ones in the original - and it seems to work fine, but uses less than half the power - 195mA measured from the AC-AC wall-wart, compared with about 400mA for one with the 74LS chips. And they run cool, too.
music-5x-3x-2x.jpg
On to Midi... My prototype M2000 clone based on Colin Fraser's schematic - http://www.colinfraser.com/m5000/m5000.htm. At first I couldn't get it to work, so sat down this afternoon to see if I could debug it. Plugged it in, and found it's working perfectly. Go figure. :? I got the logic for the activity LEDs inverted, but exchanging the 74HCT08 AND gate with a 74HCT00 NAND sorted that. I'll change the layout of the board, so the vestigial (in terms of the Hybrid system) Midi input is on the rear of the PCB separate from the outputs. I had fun playing parts of the sample music tracks on my Doepfer Dark Energy analogue synth.

As for the Midi input, I've also been playing with using a Teensy LC microcontroller to act as a midi replacement of the M4000 keyboard. I got the Midi input working nicely today. Yet another M4000 replacement alongside Danielj's (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17146) and BrokenARM's (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16893)
4xxx-midi.jpg
4xxx - yet another midi keyboard adapter
It uses 595 shift registers to store the current state of the keyboard - these are enabled in turn by a 164 shift register connected to the Beeb's user port, the same as in the original M4000 controller... It works well, and I've had it playing Midi from Musescore via my Axiom25 keyboard - a couple of quick and dirty examples attached. A number of pins are broken out from the Teensy to the edge of the PCB - many have analogue and capacitative touch capability leading to the possibility of alternative controller designs.

So now I've made pretty much a complete DIY knock-off Hybrid Music system. :D

The next stage is to test it some more, and learn more about how the Hybrid studio software and Ample works. It needs an enclosure. The 5000/3000/2000 stack should fit in an enclosure not much taller than the Beeb case, so could fit nicely by the side of the machine. Need to get some beige filament and the 3d printer warmed up. :)

Also need to confirm if it works on a Beeb Master. That's in hand, but the Master needs a little work before I can check it out.
Attachments
senbonzakura-simpleins-midi-test.mp3
(1.23 MiB) Downloaded 29 times
rydeen-midi-input-test.mp3
(1.59 MiB) Downloaded 28 times

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by pixelblip » Sun May 19, 2019 2:46 pm

Fantastic! Amazing! I am on the edge of my seat every weekend waiting to see how this pans out :D
It's great...you never know if you might inspire a complete resurgence in people making music again with Ample and Music 4000/5000/2000/3000.
It really is quirky and had a character of it's own. The way you could do 8 tracks of music and the mixer works in teletext mode....it still brings me the magic.

Well done Jason and all the others with their brilliant projects. I can't even get hold of a 4000 or a Music 5000 so you are all offering us a lifeline for the future!
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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by Biffo123 » Sun May 26, 2019 6:26 pm

Absolutely brilliant! I was in the process of doing the same thing myself with the M2000. I got to the point of starting the design in EasyEDA after the Colin Fraser schema, but you beat me to it :-) If you have any prototype M2000 boards left over I would be delighted to buy one on of them from you :-)

Do you aim to sell boards or will you publish the gerbers for it?

-Knut

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by jasonl » Sun May 26, 2019 9:58 pm

Biffo123 wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 6:26 pm
Absolutely brilliant! I was in the process of doing the same thing myself with the M2000. I got to the point of starting the design in EasyEDA after the Colin Fraser schema, but you beat me to it :-) If you have any prototype M2000 boards left over I would be delighted to buy one on of them from you :-)

Do you aim to sell boards or will you publish the gerbers for it?

-Knut
Thanks! It wasn't the easiest schematic to follow. :) I'm expecting a second prototype of my m2000 PCB very soon - this rearranges the Midi sockets and corrects a couple of minor errors on the board. I'm sure we can come to an arrangement for one of those assuming no silly mistakes were made.

Now that I've managed to verify that my 5000/3000 boards work on a BBC Master, I'm quite happy to do a small PCB run and source the memory ICs and 6070 DAC to go with them. Need to knuckle down and sort out some documentation, first. At some stage I'd like to make the design files available. However, before I proceed I think it would be wise to see if Chris Jordan is ok with it. It's his design after all.

Spent some time today designing an enclosure for the 3000/5000/2000 stack, that's printing at the moment. :D

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad

Post by jasonl » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:48 pm

An update...

It's in a 3d printed case, so makes things easier to handle. The three PCBs are separated with 15mm spaces so the enclosure is about the same height of the Beeb. Compared to an original M3000/M5000/M2000 setup it's quite compact, :D - and runs off a single 15V AC-AC adapter.
5xxx-in-enclosure-open.jpg
5xxx-in-enclosure.jpg
This shows a working setup with my Model B, Axiom25 Midi keyboard plugged in via my midi-M4000 adapter. I like the way playing the keyboard enters notes into the Notepad.
5xxx-beeb-setup.jpg
.

I made a function key strip - which helps in using the M5000 studio software. I've attached a PDF/ODF version in case anyone finds it useful. Now going through the tutorial in the manual to see if I can learn enough to do something creative with the system. So far it's a very good tutorial.

Also attached is a recording I made of the Music3000 enabled version of Michael Lefevre's Somewhere from Amplinex 23. Really nice. :)

It seems to work well on my newly acquired BBC Master - but I think something just blew in its PSU - despite having recapped it completely, it's just decided not to switch on. :( No time until next week to do a post-mortem, though.
Attachments
Somewhere-M3000.mp3
Michael Lefevre's Somewhere from Amplinex 23
(3.92 MiB) Downloaded 46 times
M5000 Keyboard Overlay.odt
(12.08 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
M5000 Keyboard Overlay.pdf
(76.34 KiB) Downloaded 38 times

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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad - Work in progress

Post by pixelblip » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:07 am

This looks fantastic Jason. Much better with it all combined! A nice case you have there......
We will have to get you composing next.....

It's so great to be able to use a Midi keyboard........you have kept the platform alive!
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Re: Music 5000 clone in Kicad

Post by jasonl » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:11 pm

I've not done much playing with the Music 5000 lately, but I did want a good copy of the user guide to print out and keep with the system. It's a very good introduction and tutorial.

I ran it through OCR, corrected and styled it in Libreoffice, and redid the contents and index, so the PDF is fully searchable and has useful bookmarks. I applied the 1986 errata, but not the 1989 addendum yet. There are probably still a few typos, but it's looking quite nice. :D

Attached in case anyone finds it useful.

I'm aiming to get my Music 5000/4000/2000 stuff uploaded to github soon.
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Hybrid Music 5000 user guide OCR.pdf
(3.68 MiB) Downloaded 68 times

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