A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

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JonC
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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by JonC » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:05 pm

danielj wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:02 pm
I did at the top. Their use is very limited at the moment, they let the beebscsi operate as the vfs portion of an lvrom player on the master's internal connector (and issue the laser disc control codes from its serial output). It's read only and hence probably more of a curiousity at the moment than anything useful?
The reason I wanted one was so I could mount internally in my master leaving the 1MHZ Bus free for other things.
Not the end of the world though, so no worries for me.
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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by danielj » Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:57 pm

You could definitely do this, but you'd have to patch adfs for the new address. As yet I don't think this has been done!

d.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by BeebMaster » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:39 pm

I don't think it's as simple as patching ADFS to access the internal 1MHz bus instead of the external one - because of the way the official AIV SCSI interface implements SCSI and fetches data from the device attached (ie. LV-ROM player), which is subtly different to the way the ST506/SASI implementation on the official Winchester host adapter works (unless BeebSCSI itself sorts all that out).

It means that whilst you can't attach the LV-ROM player via a host adapter to the external 1MHz bus and read it in ADFS (you just get a duplicated/triplicated data stream), you can attach an ADFS-formatted SCSI disc to the AIV board and read it in VFS.

Incidentally, whilst the Videodisc Filing System itself is read-only in that it will give you an error if you try any write operation from a * command provided in the MOS or VFS or a BASIC keyword which involves a disc write, VFS itself isn't necessarily read-only in that its underlying OSWORD call &62 (equivalent to ADFS OSWORD &72) is read/write. You can do a direct disc sector write to a device attached to the Master AIV SCSI board with OSWORD &62 op code &A.

It's not possible to connect up flash-memory and 1980s hard discs on the 1MHz bus at the same time and have them interact with each other, it just doesn't work. But with the old drive on the external 1MHz bus and BeebSCSI on the internal bus it should be possible to image a disc by doing a sector dump.

This is why I have been after a BeebSCSI VFS adapter so I can backup my mechanical hard discs to SD card.

So hopefully (beg...pray...snivel) we are getting close to a VFS board run.
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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by simoni » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:19 am

It means that whilst you can't attach the LV-ROM player via a host adapter to the external 1MHz bus and read it in ADFS (you just get a duplicated/triplicated data stream), you can attach an ADFS-formatted SCSI disc to the AIV board and read it in VFS.
As I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum in the past; the reason why a VP415 doesn't work on the external 1MHz bus (using an original SCSI adapter) is transfer speed. VFS has a built in (software) delay to lower the speed of the data transfer (which is controlled by the Master not the hard-drive/LaserDisc player) so that the VP415 can keep up. This is purely VFS software and has absolutely nothing to do with the AIV SCSI board design.

So there are absolutely no technical reasons preventing ADFS from being patched to work with an internally connected BeebSCSI - someone just has to alter ADFS for the correct addressing and data inversion (as the AIV SCSI board doesn't invert the SCSI data - it's done by VFS). BeebSCSI is exponentially faster than a real VP415 and will quite happily keep up with the Master's internal or external buses.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by crivett95 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:12 pm

I realise I will probably be disappointed, but I would like to express my interest in one BeebSCSI board with the VFS adaptor anyway. Thanks!

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by trixster » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:06 am

@danielj when do you want payment? Do you want us to pm you or will you contact those on the list?

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by danielj » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:07 am

When I've finished finalising the components and what it all costs :) - I'll let you know. Fear not.

d.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by trixster » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:10 am

Cool! Didn’t want you to be loads out of pocket for days/weeks

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by danielj » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:14 am

Thanks Andy :D - don't worry, I'm not ordering bits until I've got paid-for orders up to the number I can produce. And I know which weekend I'm going to spend in a fug of flux fumes. :D

d.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:00 pm

It’s looking like the second run may need to be 20 units :shock:

Mark

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by stevecwilliams » Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:37 pm

Hi,

Can you put me on reserve for a standard BeebSCSI please.

Thankyou..

stevecwilliams

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by brown1d » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:00 pm

Hi,

I would like two please with the VFS adaptors.

Thank you,
David

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by markrwj » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:34 pm

Hi Daniel,

Could you put me down for one standard beebscsi (no VFS adapter) (if not too late!)

Thanks

Mark
Last edited by markrwj on Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by danielj » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:49 pm

Hello - yes, I can add you to the bottom of the list but be warned, I'm not necessarily going to get down that far. I'm just finalising components/prices and trying to make sure that everything I want is actually in stock in one place (it becomes a pain when you have to go to multiple suppliers).

d.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by mr-macrisc » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:46 pm

I would happily order a VFS if there is gonna be a run... Already have a beeb scsi and if someone patched adfs I'd like to have it internally mounted.

John

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by daveejhitchins » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:42 am

mr-macrisc wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:46 pm
I would happily order a VFS if there is gonna be a run... Already have a beeb scsi and if someone patched adfs I'd like to have it internally mounted.
I'd like an internal BeebSCSI in my Master too. But it would make accessing the SD card difficult to back-up, add or remove content etc.

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ARA III, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by mr-macrisc » Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:13 am

daveejhitchins wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:42 am
mr-macrisc wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:46 pm
I would happily order a VFS if there is gonna be a run... Already have a beeb scsi and if someone patched adfs I'd like to have it internally mounted.
I'd like an internal BeebSCSI in my Master too. But it would make accessing the SD card difficult to back-up, add or remove content etc.

Dave H :D
Surely not dave... One of those wee extension cables that have an microsd like bit at one end, a wee ribbon and micro sd socket at other end would allow it to be placed in a number of locations. Somewhere underneath or stuck to lid just in front of forward cartridge slot so can pop out card easily whenever you like.

Something like this with a ribbon cable right length to place where you want. Like i say I am thinking stuck to lid just in beside cartridge slot so can slip card into holder through slot.

[https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpr ... 3631420183
Last edited by mr-macrisc on Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by danielj » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:20 pm

OK, I'm going to start messaging people - I'm not going to be doing the VFS boards at the moment. Please let me know if this changes your mind. They're going to be £45 + postage (I'm only prepared to send insured, so that should be £2.26). The price is for me purchasing all of the components and making up and testing one board. Timelines - as soon as I have the payment for 19 boards I'll place the order with RS. I should be able to pick up parts that week, and then hopefully it'll be a couple of weeks to build and test. I will keep you posted as to how far I've got in this thread!

I haven't made a decision on cables yet - they're not going to be super-cheap as I'll need to buy in a whole new reel of ribbon cable just for these and will end up having to split the cost across however many cables I make - it could well make more sense to get one from retroclinic or someone else who's happy to make a 60cm 34-way-34-way ribbon cable... Willing to bet they can do it substantially cheaper than I.

(If you're above the line and I haven't PM'd you yet, please feel free to message me! I'm just asking people are OK with what I've said in this post, and if they still want to order on those terms, and if so we'll work out payment)

d.
Last edited by danielj on Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by sdsolle » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:11 am

I haven't made a decision on cables yet - they're not going to be super-cheap as I'll need to buy in a whole new reel of ribbon cable just for these and will end up having to split the cost across however many cables I make - it could well make more sense to get one from retroclinic or someone else who's happy to make a 60cm 34-way-34-way ribbon cable... Willing to bet they can do it substantially cheaper than I.
If it's any help, look what I've had sitting in a box for thirty-odd years ;)

Happy to donate the whole reel to the stardot community and sling it in the post to you if you're happy to send it on to next kind soul/mad sod who offers the group a fun build like you have :)

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by danielj » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:34 am

Sean, that's ridiculously generous of you. If you're happy to do that then I can probably knock cables out for under £3. Or less depending on how much I can get IDC connectors for... Stock seems quite constrained at loads of places at the moment, and various suppliers aren't allowing backorders on many things too :(

d.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by IanS » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:50 am

danielj wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:34 am
Sean, that's ridiculously generous of you. If you're happy to do that then I can probably knock cables out for under £3. Or less depending on how much I can get IDC connectors for... Stock seems quite constrained at loads of places at the moment, and various suppliers aren't allowing backorders on many things too :(
The Abug stardot members must have vast quantities of 34-way connectors between them. There was a mountain of connectors given away at the last Leicester event. They are 34-way, but they don't have the middle bump, but for free they are still useful.
I have a small box full which you are welcome to have as many as needed. I'll check the RS part number when I'm back at home.

Edit: RS part number 471-238, I have about 40, happy to pass them on. (I believe Alex paid about 4p each for them)
Last edited by IanS on Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by sdsolle » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:51 pm

Sean, that's ridiculously generous of you.
My pleasure :)
If you're happy to do that then I can probably knock cables out for under £3.
Absolutely happy to - and as well as saving dosh, it also means you can test each complete working thing you send out … QAtastic :)

PM me where you'd like it sent, and I'll pack it up and whisk it off …
Sean.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by 1024MAK » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:03 pm

And if Ian runs out / runs low on the aforementioned IDC connectors, I have a bunch also from the ABUG meet-up that I can send to you.
Don’t know how many I have, as I just grabbed a bunch.

Mark

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by benj » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:07 pm

Hi Daniel,
danielj wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:20 pm
(If you're above the line and I haven't PM'd you yet, please feel free to message me! I'm just asking people are OK with what I've said in this post, and if they still want to order on those terms, and if so we'll work out payment)
I'm one of the 'above the line' people but I'm not able to send PMs yet - Just to say that I'm quite happy with what you've proposed, quite happy to pay via Paypal or whatever suits.

Thanks again for going to the bother of building some more of these.

Ben.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by danielj » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:46 pm

benj wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:07 pm
Hi Daniel,
danielj wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:20 pm
(If you're above the line and I haven't PM'd you yet, please feel free to message me! I'm just asking people are OK with what I've said in this post, and if they still want to order on those terms, and if so we'll work out payment)
I'm one of the 'above the line' people but I'm not able to send PMs yet - Just to say that I'm quite happy with what you've proposed, quite happy to pay via Paypal or whatever suits.

Thanks again for going to the bother of building some more of these.

Ben.
Hi Ben - I'll enable PMs for you! :)

d.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by benj » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:27 pm

danielj wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:46 pm
Hi Ben - I'll enable PMs for you! :)

d.
Great, thank you!

Ben.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by danielj » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:31 pm

IanS wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:50 am
danielj wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:34 am
Sean, that's ridiculously generous of you. If you're happy to do that then I can probably knock cables out for under £3. Or less depending on how much I can get IDC connectors for... Stock seems quite constrained at loads of places at the moment, and various suppliers aren't allowing backorders on many things too :(
The Abug stardot members must have vast quantities of 34-way connectors between them. There was a mountain of connectors given away at the last Leicester event. They are 34-way, but they don't have the middle bump, but for free they are still useful.
I have a small box full which you are welcome to have as many as needed. I'll check the RS part number when I'm back at home.

Edit: RS part number 471-238, I have about 40, happy to pass them on. (I believe Alex paid about 4p each for them)
If you're sure Ian, that would be great - I'll happily bung freebie cables in with each one.

d.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by IanS » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:53 pm

danielj wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:31 pm
If you're sure Ian, that would be great - I'll happily bung freebie cables in with each one.
I had a small fraction of this pile download/file.php?id=41806&mode=view
(I think that picture was after lots had already been taken).

I'm never likely to use them all. I'll stick 30 in an envelope and leave it in the car, remind me of your address and I'll put them through your door next time I'm in the area.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by danielj » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:09 pm

Cheers Ian :) you're a star.

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Re: A potential run of BeebSCSI 7.7 (the newest)

Post by mattdy4 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:42 am

Paid. Thanks Daniel!

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