New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
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IanS
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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by IanS » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:06 am

KenLowe wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:40 pm
What's the general advice on this board for removing the flux residue???
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15649

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KenLowe
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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:15 am

IanS wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:06 am
KenLowe wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:40 pm
What's the general advice on this board for removing the flux residue???
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15649
Thank you. That's a big help.

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MartinB
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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by MartinB » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:36 am

Oooh, missed your piccies!

Wow, you've certainly been busy! Brings back all sorts of mixed memories about this hobby-level 'mass-production' stuff - very satisfying but, as we previously noted, requiring lots of hard work and selfless dedication to the cause.... =D>

Anyway, they're looking really smart Ken, a credit to you... 8)

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KenLowe
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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:08 pm

Thank you. It's actually quite therapeutic (perhaps it's the solder fumes :roll:). A bit like Lego for adults!

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by Kazzie » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:14 pm

KenLowe wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:08 pm
Thank you. It's actually quite therapeutic (perhaps it's the solder fumes :roll:). A bit like Lego for adults!
Perhaps we need to start a club: Adult Friends of LegoSoldering?
BBC Model B 32k issue 7, Sidewise ROM board with 16K RAM
Archimedes 420/1 upgraded to 4MB RAM, ZIDEFS with 512MB CF card
Acorn System 1 home-made replica

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by 1024MAK » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:51 pm

AFOFF? [Adult Friends Of Flux Fumes] :mrgreen:

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by Caver99 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:47 pm

is there anymore info on this board as yet?

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KenLowe
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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:50 pm

Yeah. I have a number of them built up and they're being soak tested in various machines now. No problems to report so far. I'm just finishing off the documentation and hope to have an initial batch available by the end of the month.

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:27 am

So, following on from my last post, I have an initial batch of 10 fully populated boards that will be available for posting early next week for anyone who wants to purchase one. In the first instance, this initial batch is being offered exclusively to Stardot forum members, but in time I do intend to offer them for sale on the facebook group, and more widely on ebay. They will be sold on a first come first served basis, and will be limited to one board per member until I understand what demand is likely to be.

I've created a thread here in the Trading section of this forum, and will use that to track interested purchasers. Price for this first batch will be £65 + £5 postage. I am NOT making any money out of this - just covering costs! The price will likely increase with the next batch as I will need to cover ebay and paypal fees.
Last edited by KenLowe on Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by marcusjambler » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:32 am

One for me please Ken :)

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by marcusjambler » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:44 am

Hi Ken

I've got the board up and running :D

One thing I've noticed is there are now two versions of the SRAM facilities.
One in IBOS and the other in 1770 DFS 2.26.

Is there a copy of 2.26 with the SRAM tools removed?

Marcus

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KenLowe
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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:18 am

marcusjambler wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:44 am
Hi Ken

I've got the board up and running :D

One thing I've noticed is there are now two versions of the SRAM facilities.
One in IBOS and the other in 1770 DFS 2.26.

Is there a copy of 2.26 with the SRAM tools removed?

Marcus
I'm glad to hear you've got it up and running. Hopefully it was a fairly easy process.

I'm not aware of a copy of DFS 2.26 with SRAM tools removed, but I could look to provide a copy of IBOS with the SRAM tools removed. Not something I could do immediately, but I did quite a lot of work last year decompiling the IBOS code to make it Beebasm compatible, so removing the SRAM code and recompiling should be relatively straight forward!
Last edited by KenLowe on Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by marcusjambler » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:33 pm

Some photos 8)
IMG_6704a.jpg
IMG_6701a.jpg
IMG_6711a.jpg

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KenLowe
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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:52 pm

Very neat =D> =D> =D> Liking the mini heat sink on the 6502.

Have you tried any programs / games that take advantage of the shadow RAM yet? Lancelot, by Level 9, is a good example. You only get graphics if you have both shadow AND sideways RAM available. Be careful, though, because it just tramples over any SWRAM banks it finds. It doesn't ask for permission!

Edit: Just noticed the heat sinks on some of the other chips too. And the VideoNuLa tucked in there too!
Edit2: And the speech upgrade. You've got a fully pimped up machine there!!!!
Last edited by KenLowe on Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by marcusjambler » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:24 pm

Lancelot, by Level 9
Good call I'll give it a go :D
fully pimped up machine there!!!!
Aye... She's a thing of beauty...

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by marcusjambler » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:28 pm

mini heat sink on the 6502
£2 for 10 on ebay :D
They dont do much.. but then do they need to? :lol:

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by marcusjambler » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:45 am

This is a great board :D

I've had Level 9 :- Time and Magic & Lancelot working with graphics.
Also PAL based Quest Paint and smally mouse work great.

Super Art V3.61 runs but the mouse movement goes in reverse if you move it too quickly....

Marcus

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KenLowe
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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:47 am

marcusjambler wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:45 am
This is a great board :D

I've had Level 9 :- Time and Magic & Lancelot working with graphics.
Also PAL based Quest Paint and smally mouse work great.

Super Art V3.61 runs but the mouse movement goes in reverse if you move it too quickly....

Marcus
Glad to hear that it working well for you. :D

Co-incidentally, I hooked up my SmallyMouse2 for the first time yesterday to try it with Integra Windows, and noticed the same reverse movements that you've picked up with Super Art. I put it down to the mouse / surface, but there's maybe more to it than that. I can't see it being anything to do with the IntegraB board, but I'll look into it a bit further.

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:30 am

Folks,

Just to make everyone aware, I picked up a potential 'issue' with the IntegraB board, if using the board with a Cypress (RAMTRON) FM18W08 FRAM module. I haven't supplied FRAM modules to anyone, and you can't actually buy a drop in module, so I don't think this will have affected anyone, and in any case the solution to the problem is very simple.

The documentation I supplied recommends that the configuration jumpers for FRAM be set in the same way as a 32k (non battery backed) RAM module. It turns out that this is NOT the best configuration. Instead the configuration jumpers should be set in the same way as a 32k battery backed (BB) RAM module. The User Guide will be updated shortly to reflect this.

For those who are interested in the detail, I noticed that the backup battery was draining quicker than expected in some apparently random configurations. On investigation, I discovered the backup battery was trying to power up the whole Beeb via the FRAM module.

The IntegraB is configured with pull up on the /CE line for each of the 8 ROM / RAM sockets and the three pre-installed RAM modules on the board. This pull up is tied into the backup battery supply and therefore held high even when main power is removed. I believe this is to prevent potential corruption of RAM on power cycle.

Whilst this configuration works fine for ROM, (E)(E)PROM, Flash & RAM, it does NOT work for FRAM. If voltage is applied to the /CE input of an otherwise de-powered FRAM module, this voltage finds its way to pin 28 (Vdd) of the module. If this pin is tied into the normal 5V rail of the beeb, this results in the module trying to power up the remainder of the Beeb.

As previously mentioned, the solution is simple. All that needs to be done is to connect pin 28 of the FRAM to the battery backed supply instead of the normal non battery backed supply. This can be done easily with the configuration jumpers. The right hand jumper in the block of 12 pins (SBx) is used to set the voltage source. To use a battery backed supply, the jumper should be set to the south position. To use a non battery backed supply, the jumper should be set to the north position. For FRAM, this jumper should therefore be set to the south position.

Arguably, this reduces the benefit of having FRAM, which should work without battery backup. However, it still has benefits. Should the back up battery discharge over time, or should the module need to be removed from the board for any reason, unlike standard RAM, the contents will still be retained.

Apologies for not picking this up earlier and for allowing this error to creep into the User Guide.

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by Coeus » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:49 pm

marcusjambler wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:44 am
Is there a copy of 2.26 with the SRAM tools removed?
I attach one I made just now. To explain, the DFS 2.26 ROM is actually four logical sideways ROMs, each with its own service routine, packed into the same physical ROM. These are:
  • Some RAM size/startup message code
  • Sideays RAM utils
  • DFS
  • Tubehost
The service calls are daisy chained so all that is needed is to re-link that chain to exclude the sideways RAM utils, in this case by patching the JMP at 3EDD (BEDD) to go to 965D (DFS) instead of B1B1 (SRAM).
Attachments
dfs2.26nsr.zip
(12.51 KiB) Downloaded 9 times

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by marcusjambler » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:19 pm

I attach one I made just now.
=D> =D>

Thanks for that

Marcus

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KenLowe
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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:53 pm

Coeus wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:49 pm
marcusjambler wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:44 am
Is there a copy of 2.26 with the SRAM tools removed?
I attach one I made just now. To explain, the DFS 2.26 ROM is actually four logical sideways ROMs, each with its own service routine, packed into the same physical ROM. These are:
  • Some RAM size/startup message code
  • Sideays RAM utils
  • DFS
  • Tubehost
The service calls are daisy chained so all that is needed is to re-link that chain to exclude the sideways RAM utils, in this case by patching the JMP at 3EDD (BEDD) to go to 965D (DFS) instead of B1B1 (SRAM).
Nice bit of detective work there. =D> =D> =D>

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by aotta » Mon May 27, 2019 6:29 pm

marcusjambler wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:45 am
This is a great board :D

I've had Level 9 :- Time and Magic & Lancelot working with graphics.
Also PAL based Quest Paint and smally mouse work great.

Super Art V3.61 runs but the mouse movement goes in reverse if you move it too quickly....

Marcus
I tested Time and Magic & Lancelot, but got only coloured garbage on screen for the graphics version.
I used osmode 0 as suggested in readme, and tried both shx on and off option with no luck.
What else can i try?

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Mon May 27, 2019 7:01 pm

Sounds like you've still got some issues with your board.

Firstly, can you try installing some ROM images into RAM banks 4, 5, 6 & 7 using the *EELOAD utility. This utility does a verification check of what's been installed in the RAM banks.
Secondly, what happens if you switch to a shadow mode (eg MODE 128)? Do you see any corruption on the screen?

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by aotta » Mon May 27, 2019 8:23 pm

KenLowe wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:01 pm
Sounds like you've still got some issues with your board.

Firstly, can you try installing some ROM images into RAM banks 4, 5, 6 & 7 using the *EELOAD utility. This utility does a verification check of what's been installed in the RAM banks.
Secondly, what happens if you switch to a shadow mode (eg MODE 128)? Do you see any corruption on the screen?
Yes, Ken.. neverending story! but eeload works fine with all banks (i added ram at 8,9,a and b sockets), and mode 128 shows no corruption.
And Elite SW, and exile, and even intwin demo works right.
But *shadow or *shx value are indifferent as setup for this game?

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Mon May 27, 2019 8:26 pm

What is PAGE value on your system (>PRINT ~PAGE)? And what file system are you using?

Try to *UNPLUG all unnecessary ROMS to see if that makes any difference.
Last edited by KenLowe on Mon May 27, 2019 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by aotta » Mon May 27, 2019 9:16 pm

Ken, thank you for the help, but found the problem elsewhere!!
I removed the write protection link from the two RAM IC on the IntegraB, and this way games works! \:D/
So, with RAM IC removed or protected, i presume games use slot 4 to 7, that are ok.
Apart of this two games, the SW ram i added seems to be fine, so i am a bit confuse...
And don't try to replace my board with a new one... i know you'd like this solution for avoid all my newbye questions! :lol:

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Mon May 27, 2019 10:46 pm

Glad you got it working. No more pressure from me to have your board replaced :)

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by aotta » Tue May 28, 2019 5:15 pm

KenLowe wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:46 pm
Glad you got it working. No more pressure from me to have your board replaced :)
:lol: :lol:

but is there no software way to protect or hide the Ram ICs added to IntegraB, without acting to the configuration links?
I don't like very much the idea to add a switch to my Beeb...

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Re: New ROM / RAM Expansion Board for BBC B

Post by KenLowe » Tue May 28, 2019 6:09 pm

Can you please explain exactly what configuration doesn't work. I have 32k RAM in banks 4/5, 6/7 and C/D and tried various combinations, but can't get it to fail:

If I write protect C/D and enable 4/5 & 6/7 Lancelot runs in graphics mode
If I write protect 4/5 and enable 6/7 & C/D Lancelot runs in graphics mode
If I write protect 4/5 & 6/7 and enable C/D Lancelot runs in graphics mode
If I write protect all banks, Lancelot runs in text mode 7

Regarding software W/P, unfortunately this is not possible. The simplest thing to do is wire out some switches to the rear of the board. Here's an earlier photo of my original IntegraB board, with W/P switches connected to the header pins:

Image
Last edited by KenLowe on Tue May 28, 2019 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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