New econet setup

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Lardo Boffin
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New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:25 am

My econet kit arrived recently so it is time to try and set it up.

My first stage plan is to just get two beebs to talk to each other. This looks to be a simple case of connecting each one to the clock.

I am initially going to be using a Master and a USA beeb. The latter already has econet fitted and the former now has thanks to a drop in module from Beebmaster.

The first hurdle being a master noob is how to get the ANFS ROM running. I already have a datacentre installed so the only free ROM socket now has ANFS in it. It is between the RAM FS chip and keyboard.

A0FB4338-94F3-4579-97D0-41319031A205.jpeg
When switched on it is not recognised so I assume I have to change jumper settings to switch between sideways RAM and the ROM socket? I only have a Master welcome guide so I’m not sure which jumper to set for this. The ROM works fine when put in place of the RAM FS chip.
Or if anyone has an image of the ANFS ROM it may be easier to run it from sideways RAM?

Hurdle two is that I have a ADFS image of the fileserver software (thanks again Beebmaster) but no idea how to get it on to the beeb! I have only ever used SSD inages before. I have a datacentre - is there any way to get it mounted via that?

Thanks all!

Lardo
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
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danielj
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Re: New econet setup

Post by danielj » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:48 am

OK. If you put anfs in there you'll loose 2 banks of sideways ram. Do you have a rom cartridge you can stick it in? Or failing that, reprogram the multios chip - ditch viewsheet and stick in anfs (that's what I did).

If you have a gotek, that's the easiest way of dealing with ADFS images? Or alternatively you can use ADFS explorer on a pc to work with an image of your cf card (use the backup programs that came with the dc) and drop the relevant files on like that (it lets you drag and drop from disk image to hdd image).

d.

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:12 am

Thanks Daniel.

I have a Retroclinic multi-os so reprogramming is a no go. I would happily ditch View though!

I have a battery backed RAM cart which I could try. It made my Master crash last time I tried it though but it has had its firmware updated since. I don’t have a normal cart. I am hapy enough just to load to sideways RAM when required in the short term if anyone has an image?

Thanks for the heads up on ADFS explorer - I also don’t have a gotek! :oops:
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master, Datacentre + HDD, pi co-proc

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Re: New econet setup

Post by philb » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:01 am

Lardo Boffin wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:12 am
I am hapy enough just to load to sideways RAM when required in the short term if anyone has an image?
http;//pbcl.net/bbc/ANFS425

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Re: New econet setup

Post by philb » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:03 am

Lardo Boffin wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:25 am
My first stage plan is to just get two beebs to talk to each other. This looks to be a simple case of connecting each one to the clock.
Maybe you just glossed over this because it was too obvious to be worth mentioning, but you need at least one terminator as well. Ideally you'd have two (one at each end). A single one will suffice for a small network, but if you don't have any at all then you will probably just get "Line jammed" all the time.
Last edited by philb on Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New econet setup

Post by 1024MAK » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:20 am

To answer the original question regarding use of the ROM sockets vs. sideways RAM, here is an extract from the Master Service Manual:
LK18 plug, made West: Paged ROM/RAM
Select. Two position link.
When fitted in the West position, this link causes 16Kbyte of RAM to appear in each of the "sideways" memory "slots" 6 and 7.
When fitted in the East position, a 32Kbyte ROM occupying slots 6 and 7 may be plugged into socket labelled 1C41.

LK19 plug, made West: Paged ROM/RAM Select.
Two position link.
When fitted in the West position, this link causes 16Kbyte of RAM to appear in each of the "sideways" memory "slots" 4 and 5.
When fitted in the East position, a 32Kbyte ROM occupying slots 4 and 5 may be plugged into socket labelled IC37.
Note that you can use 16K byte ROMs/EPROMs as well as 32K byte ROMs/EPROMs.

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:37 am

philb wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:03 am
Lardo Boffin wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:25 am
My first stage plan is to just get two beebs to talk to each other. This looks to be a simple case of connecting each one to the clock.
Maybe you just glossed over this because it was too obvious to be worth mentioning, but you need at least one terminator as well. Ideally you'd have two (one at each end). A single one will suffice for a small network, but if you don't have any at all then you will probably just get "Line jammed" all the time.
Thanks. I have two terminators. I bought the complete starter set up from beebmaster.
I glossed over the whole of the set up of the network as at this stage I have no idea how to do it. Much reading is to be done!
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
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Lardo Boffin
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Re: New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:38 am

Thanks Mark.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master, Datacentre + HDD, pi co-proc

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Re: New econet setup

Post by danielj » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:41 am

Lardo Boffin wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:12 am
Thanks Daniel.

I have a Retroclinic multi-os so reprogramming is a no go. I would happily ditch View though!

I have a battery backed RAM cart which I could try. It made my Master crash last time I tried it though but it has had its firmware updated since. I don’t have a normal cart. I am hapy enough just to load to sideways RAM when required in the short term if anyone has an image?

Thanks for the heads up on ADFS explorer - I also don’t have a gotek! :oops:
The eeprom in the multios can easily be reprogrammed, assuming you have a relatively modern eprom programmer attached to a PC? And yes, view could be ditched in lieu of ANFS :)

d.

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:57 am

I don’t have any EPROM facilities. I tend to get them burned on demand as I do it so infrequently.
I may well send it off to Mark to get it updated at some point for a more permanent solution.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master, Datacentre + HDD, pi co-proc

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Re: New econet setup

Post by flaxcottage » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:32 pm

Lardo Boffin wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:12 am
I am hapy enough just to load to sideways RAM when required in the short term if anyone has an image?
You will need a hacked version of ANFS. It does not like to load into SWR.
- John
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Re: New econet setup

Post by AndyF » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:13 pm

I'm not sure this is going to be any help or not, but when I started out with a M128 server, I just had the ANFS chip in one socket, I can't remember which I do recall fiddling with the links to sort it.

I then realised as I had one of Marks's DualOS (as I preferred it in 3.5 seemed fractionally more game compatible but that's off topic) , I was able at that time to purchase a new DualOS with ANFS in it , replacing something else. That was loads better as it was 'already there' however having it in a socket in its own ROM did not really intrude into the machines general operation at least for what I was using it for...
Last edited by AndyF on Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New econet setup

Post by danielj » Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:15 pm

There is one socket you can use, but if you've already got RAMFS in there (as Lardo does), you're somewhat stuffed unless you start sacrificing sideways RAM...

d.
Last edited by danielj on Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:27 pm

I’m assuming in the short term sacrificing sideways RAM won’t be an issue unless it is required for the level 3 server software?
Once everything is sorted I can find a permanent solution.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master, Datacentre + HDD, pi co-proc

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Re: New econet setup

Post by sweh » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:30 pm

The server doesn't use SWRam; it runs on the 2nd processor.
Rgds
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Re: New econet setup

Post by 1024MAK » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:53 pm

You may also want to consider Dave’s latest cartridge, the Retro Hardware ARA III - Low Cost Writable ROM Cartridge - For the Electron and Master ;-)

Mark
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Lardo Boffin
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Re: New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:29 pm

1024MAK wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:53 pm
You may also want to consider Dave’s latest cartridge, the Retro Hardware ARA III - Low Cost Writable ROM Cartridge - For the Electron and Master ;-)

Mark
Thanks Mark. Looks like a good permanent solution.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master, Datacentre + HDD, pi co-proc

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Re: New econet setup

Post by BeebMaster » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:08 pm

flaxcottage wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:32 pm
Lardo Boffin wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:12 am
I am hapy enough just to load to sideways RAM when required in the short term if anyone has an image?
You will need a hacked version of ANFS. It does not like to load into SWR.
I wasn't aware of a problem with ANFS and sideways RAM, definitely ANFS 4.18 (on BBC B) works fine in SRAM as I used to use it regularly on Station 128 till I put it in EPROM.
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Re: New econet setup

Post by flaxcottage » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:22 pm

ANFS 4.25 certainly doesn't like SWR in a Master. I'll have to look out for ANFS 4.18, thanks.
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Re: New econet setup

Post by BeebMaster » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:32 pm

4.18 is only for the BBC B, so it won't work in the Master. The way the station ID is read is different (PCB links on BBC B, CMOS RAM on Master) and probably lots of other workspace differences as well.

I don't remember any problem with ANFS 4.25 in SRAM on a Master, I'll have to look into that when I get chance.
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Re: New econet setup

Post by BeebMaster » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:43 pm

For reference here is a link to my L3 File Server disc:

http://www.beebmaster.co.uk/Downloads/L3FS-ISW-2010.rar

It is an ADFS "L" (640K) disc image, the idea being back in 2006 when I made version 1, for it to be written to a floppy disc. It is an Econet-partitioned disc so contains an ADFS area with the Level 3 file server code and Library & Utils directories, as well as a small file server area allowing the same disc to be used with the L3 file server running to get a basic server going.

Anything which can mount or understand a byte-for-byte ADFS disc image should be able to use it, but I don't know how the Datacentre handles these things. It could be written directly to a CF card for a system which uses ADFS 1.53, but the image would need padding to get over the 512 byte sector problem. Possibly the Retroclinic CFRestore utility could do this?

If it helps I have extracted all the files from the ADFS part of the disc image into a "logical" copy, with .inf files:

http://www.beebmaster.co.uk/Downloads/L ... 20Copy.zip

Plucking out individual files from inside this archive might be an easier way of getting to them, and getting the file server running. The !ReadMe file in there has instructions.

Using *NOTIFY or *VIEW would probably be the quickest way to test that it is possible to communicate between two Econet stations, these can be run from local storage with no need for an Econet file server to be running.
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Lardo Boffin
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Re: New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:28 pm

I have changed link 18 and the ANFS ROM is now good to go and I have a lovely message that I am ‘econet station 64 no clock’ after doing N plus break. I get a similar message from my USA Beeb.
Next to look at getting the disc onto my Master somehow.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
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Re: New econet setup

Post by BeebMaster » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:04 pm

BeebMaster wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:32 pm

I don't remember any problem with ANFS 4.25 in SRAM on a Master, I'll have to look into that when I get chance.
Works all right here in Station 1 (MOS 3.20). I used ADT to "move" it from ROM slot 1 to sideways RAM slot 4

Code: Select all

*AMOVE 8000+4000 3000 1
*AMOVE 3000+4000 8000 4
*UNPLUG 1
*FX 200 2
[BREAK]
*NET
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Lardo Boffin
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Re: New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:25 am

I tried last night with the image philb sent (thanks!) and the econet part seemed to work but I got a load of bad checksum errors. I used to get these when my datacentre was installed in a model B and it was suspected to be down to ROMs trampling on the ADFS workspace.
It works fine with the physical rom in place.

Run via RAM after ctrl + break:-
9E8381AC-2C60-4E61-8EA1-F9A4B6BDFB76.jpeg
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master, Datacentre + HDD, pi co-proc

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Re: New econet setup

Post by BeebMaster » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:55 am

After you have loaded ANFS into sideways RAM, make sure you do a *FX 200,2 reset to clear all the workspace otherwise you might get Bad net checksum or Bad checksum errors.
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Lardo Boffin
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Re: New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:30 am

Ahhh. Thanks.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master, Datacentre + HDD, pi co-proc

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:46 am

I now have a registered copy of ADFS explorer so time to try to get the files on CF card. Well, tonight anyway.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master, Datacentre + HDD, pi co-proc

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: New econet setup

Post by Lardo Boffin » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:01 pm

My Master is going to be the file server. Does it matter what its station number is? Are there reserved numbers that should be used for the file store?

I have downloaded a bunch of econet docs but only skim read them so far.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master, Datacentre + HDD, pi co-proc

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Re: New econet setup

Post by johnkenyon » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:12 pm

Lardo Boffin wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:01 pm
My Master is going to be the file server. Does it matter what its station number is? Are there reserved numbers that should be used for the file store?

I have downloaded a bunch of econet docs but only skim read them so far.
Usual practice back in the day was to use station 254 for the 1st file server.

I have a vague memory that this also affords the file server priority when a collision occurs (two stations trying to transmit at the same time), as the backoff before retrying uses the station number to determine the delay before retrying.

So although you can use any station number (other than 0 or 255), higher numbers were preferred.

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Re: New econet setup

Post by danielj » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:17 pm

ANFS and NFS expect the fileserver to be station 254 (unless you tell it otherwise). On the beeb it's hard-coded into the ROM (you can tell it to use a different other than the default), on the master you can set it in the cmos.


d.

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