Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

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Elminster
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Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:27 pm

My AP5 never worked, but I never told Dave (shhh).

The symptoms were just a white screen on Electron when the AP5 was plugged in. Eventually tracked it down this week (Ihad a spare evening) to a defunct 6522. Stole one from a Beeb with a Video problem and all happy now.

Tested the Tube with pitubedirect and the 1Mhz with a DataCentre.

Just the Userport and UPURS ports left to try. I also have a Smally mouse that I have never tested so I am going to try them both at the same time (what could possibly go wrong!). Any one tried the Electron + AP5 + Smally Mouse Combo. If so what software with mouse support will probably work?

Edit: Forgot to say was going to give AMX Mouse a try first.
Last edited by Elminster on Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by MartinB » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:40 pm

Duncan wrote:Just the Userport and UPURS ports left to try.
And I2C. I bet you haven’t tested I2C.... [-X [-(

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:47 pm

I dont know I have anything to hand to test I2C but I am sure it will work. I may have something in my pie or arduio box of stuff.

I didnt mention I tested every connection and[edit] component etc with a meter. 6522 [edit] was the last thing. I swapped out all the the other IC as well. It is unlikely to not work.

Edit: Those typos, is the stress of penalty shootouts I tell you.
Last edited by Elminster on Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by MartinB » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:55 pm

Duncan wrote:I didnt mention I tested every connection with, component etc with a meter.
Ha! In which case, as you say, it’ll be fine because there’s no signal conditioning - the I2C lines are just passive connections to the 6522 8)

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:07 pm

5x6522s ordered. I do have two new wdc65c22 but they are ‘s’ flavour and not the ‘n’ flavour. Bought for some project, probably home brew 6502 computer.

Will now have to look at getting some i2c! Only thing I have is the control board in my pi-top that talks i2c to the pi. That wouldn’t be practical.

Edit: skimmed i2c u thread and I posted that my adafruit lcd has Ic2, I know where that is. Tomorrow’s job is to get upurs2e, i2cElk and amx_elk Roms onto gosdc and test them.

My upurs cable is for Beeb. Hoping I can use a FTDI serial cable like what I use for pi console or gotek programming rather than make another cable.
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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by MartinB » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:01 am

I mischievously wrote:And I2C. I bet you haven’t tested I2C.... [-X [-(
Duncan wrote:Edit: skimmed i2c u thread and I posted that my adafruit lcd has Ic2, I know where that is. Tomorrow’s job is to get upurs2e, i2cElk and amx_elk Roms onto gosdc and test them.

I was only teasing you know.... :lol:



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Last edited by MartinB on Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Elminster
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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:29 am

[-X

But you did remind me I need to play with I2C, but it had slipped down my enourmous todo list.

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by daveejhitchins » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:49 am

Elminster wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:27 pm
My AP5 never worked, but I never told Dave (shhh).
Well darn-you Duncan :lol: You should have let me know . . . I do test every interface before shipping - OK . . . I don't test the I2C or UPURS interfaces, but, as Martin points out they're just passive to the User Ports which are tested. I could have sent you a replacement 6522 . . .

Dave H :D
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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:53 am

daveejhitchins wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:49 am
Elminster wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:27 pm
My AP5 never worked, but I never told Dave (shhh).
Well darn-you Duncan :lol: You should have let me know . . . I do test every interface before shipping - OK . . . I don't test the I2C or UPURS interfaces, but, as Martin points out they're just passive to the User Ports which are tested. I could have sent you a replacement 6522 . . .

Dave H :D
But this was a kit one, so I didnt know till I fixed it if it was me doing something mad or not (Which is my I didnt use the UPURS method when I reflashed the MGC card, cause it no work at the time). Besides I need some other 6522n's for another 6522 project on RC2014.
Last edited by Elminster on Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:23 pm

Now has brand new wdc6522n in it, and the old working 6522 can go back in the Beeb I stole it from.

Time to close up the metal front plate, and call it fully operational.

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by aerworuld » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:50 pm

Elminster wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:27 pm
Just the Userport and UPURS ports left to try. I also have a Smally mouse that I have never tested so I am going to try them both at the same time (what could possibly go wrong!). Any one tried the Electron + AP5 + Smally Mouse Combo. If so what software with mouse support will probably work?

Edit: Forgot to say was going to give AMX Mouse a try first.

So with the mouse, here's the version of Electron AMX Art that Martin adapted for me, along with the known working version of the AMX ROM that plays nicely with it.

I don't want to teach anyone to suck eggs, but here's the way I load up:

(I have a 16k eeprom is ROM slot 1)

So with the floppy in drive 0, I use
*DRIVE 2
to get to the ROM utils on the other side of the disc, then

*EELOAD AMX 1
to load the ROM in. Do a <ctrl><break> now. You don't need to manually switch mouse to on or anything, simply do a <shift><break> and it will load up AMX Art from side 0. Sometimes it will hang, misbehave so just <shift><break> again.

This works with both a normal old fashioned AMX (or compatible) User Port mouse from BITD, or with Smally Mouse2 USB interface.


Stuart
ElkAMX.zip
AMX side 0, EELOAD and AMX ROM side 2
(114.75 KiB) Downloaded 17 times

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Elminster
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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:05 pm

Thanks. I will have a go this evening. If I get stuck I shall find some eggs :)

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:25 pm

Hmm. Even with the correct application and the correct ROM it isnt easy to get it to work. In fact I am not sure how I did get it to work as fiddeled about for 45 mins, was about to give up and then I got it to start but mouse would not move, unplug and plug the userport connector back in and it started moving.

Anyone would think everything had been hacked about to make it work on Electron Userport :)

i guess now I need to work out why it did or didnt work. (Didnt help I dont usually use DSD disk on gosdc, and I didnt use the interleave opion to copy the disk, so had a corrupt disk to start with).

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:29 pm

Just to prove in years to come the above stuff posted by Stuart works on AP5 and smallymouse2. If you wrestle with it.
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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by MartinB » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:41 pm

I’d forgotten I tweaked that package too! 😳 (Although Stuart was very needy so maybe I’ve erased the memory :lol: )

Now remembering though, I only used it a few times, just long enough to be happy to set Stuart loose with the package but neither he nor I ever had to ‘wrestle’ with anything once we’d diagnosed and fixed the dry joint on his EUP. Indeed, Stuart subsequently became somewhat prolific and renowned with his Elk mouse piccies....🐁 🖼 :D

Soooo..... not sure why you are still having problems :? :-k

(Or is it all slick now....?)


Edit (but then you can all see that) : Actually, I of course have an AP5 too and various User Port mice so I could give this a whirl over the weekend to increase to a sample of three.



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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:12 pm

A numberof things. Which I have more or less bottomed out.

1. The first is it wont start if I have smally mouse plugged in. Electorn hangs if smallymouse plugged in and AMX Mouse ROM active. Not sure why, was okay yesterday. If I get AMX Paint running then I can plug in the mouse and it works. That was one things that threw me. [Edit: Okay slightly weirdly if I use my hacked USB to Amiga to userport mouse interface instead of smallymouse2 it will start, without the plug/pull workaround. Ironically the mouse Y is upside down. i.e. down is up, up is down, left to right is fine - which probably means I wired it up wrong years ago, but the important thing is it works, Update issues seems to be a slight incompatability between smallymouse2 and WDC65022n, replacing with a MOS6522 fixes issue]

2. The second was as mentioned the disk image was corrupt to start with, user error that one.

3. pitubedirect is what gives the 'AMX Rom not found at line 50' error.

4. You need to have the correct ROM and Package.

Order of ROMS, or what was inserted or not appears to amke no difference. For a full answer I have added (4) for future people having issues.

Edit: Edited for completeness.
Last edited by Elminster on Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:55 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by MartinB » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:17 pm

Ok, thanks for the update. I don't have a Smallymouse, just AMX ones (and I think some some generics) and I'd be using real disc drives with the image created using UPURS.

Anyway and whatever, sounds like a good reason for a refresher over the weekend..... :D



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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:25 pm

I have editted the post above for completeness. I can now basically get it to start first time, every time.

Not sure why smallymouse is hanging the electron, but works if you plug it in later on. I even using the same ROM as yesterday. Only thing I havent tried is putting back the Bbc model B 6522 I was using yesterday. I might try that, if it makes no difference I will live with the work around. After all it probably isnt that likely I will be using a mouse very often on the Electron.

I can always do more testing with the smally on the master to check it behaves there.

Edit: Another thought is some sort of clash between gosdc and smallymouse. The only reason that occurs to me is if for somereason gosdc roms are not accessible after srload of amx mouse then I dont get hang, but then I cant load AMX ART as cant access disc. I dont have a +3/AP34 or Beebscsi mini. And cant remember where I put my slogger pegasus. I could use the external DC, seemed to work with AP5 but not tested it that much.

So that is two ideas to try.
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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:54 am

Interesting. Got Datacentre working with the first ROM and Version of ELK AMX I tried, It was pitube causing that issue.

The Smallymouse2 still hangs on initial *mouse on, but hit shift break again and it works, with the gosdc plug it it just goes Beep, and hangs if the Smallymouse is plugged in. The hacked Amiga mouse adpator working straight away (with Y axis being upside down).

And the issue with the initial *mouse on hangs goes away if I replace the WDC6522N with an original MOS 6522 (so much for backwards compatability!)

A question for Simon I. and Dave I think.

Will update post above again.
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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:08 pm

I plug it a vanilla Pres Plus+1, only ROMS are the RAMFS and ADT (so that I can load the Art program and the ROM).

Same issue. So not related to the AP6 or any ROMS I have.

I think I will stop my testing there. And wait to see if Dave H.[Edit] interested in recreating. The only other thing I could do would be to remove the Prime MRB board but that seems like a lot of effort. Be easier just to try someone elses setup at Sept ABUG.

Edit: Also tried swappping which cart was in which slot in case that was the issue. And also tried starting with and without mouse plugged in, and two difference mice. Just in case.
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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by hoglet » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:10 pm

(not really been following this)

Dave as in me, or Dave as in Dave H?
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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:15 pm

hoglet wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:10 pm
(not really been following this)

Dave as in me, or Dave as in Dave H?
Well you are more than welcome :) But no Dave. H. (I will edit other post). I did drop him and Simon a mail, just putting finding in her in case anyone else every hits this isuse. Or feels like trying to recreate it.

Edit: I like to put my finding somewhere as in a year I will a) not remember what I did, or b) where I put it. Then peopel can tell me!

Edit2: It also occurs to me that an advantage of an Ulimate Electron ULA is you could put all the commands and features of all the useful ROMS together. Making it much easier to make everything compatabile.
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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by MartinB » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:00 pm

Just for my benefit coz I think I've slightly lost the plot as to exactly what your remaining issue is/issues are..... :?

If I take an Elk with a Plus 1 and plug in an AP5, what else is in your suspect config? I only have a User Port mouse, not a Smallymouse so is the test for problems still valid? I will need a disc interface in the other Plus 1 slot so either a Peg or an AP34 (so I can load the AMX Art disc) and where should the mouse rom go - sideways ram on the AP5 or perhaps an eprom in either a spare disc interface card socket or on the AP5? Once set-up, what is (are) the problem(s) I'm looking for?



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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:13 pm

A fair question.

You would need a smallymouse2, a newer wdc6522n, maybe a Prime MRB. (And the AP5)

Don’t think a real mouse will have issue, as my hacked up Beeb to Amiga to usb mouse has no issue. And an original mos 6522has no issue. A fairly specific requirement. So you can probably stand down. And have the weekend off.

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by MartinB » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:24 pm

I have an AP5 and I have both flavours of WDC6522 but not the rest so thank-you, I will stand down from this particular issue.

No worries though, I always have plenty of other Beeb and Elk tinkering lined up to keep me occupied.... 8)

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:49 pm

I have swapped the y wires on my Amiga usb to Beeb adaptor, that works fine on Electron, Smallmouse can go on Master (which what I got it for). All sorted, for me.

I shall perhaps see if anyone is interested in diagnosing further at ABUG Cambridge where I can recreate on demand. Otherwise thread will be here for anyone else that hits this issue.

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by daveejhitchins » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:26 am

OK, just caught up . . . Due to me not having most of what is needed, I think the best plan here is to look at the problem at Cambridge. I'll have at least one elk system - Hmmm! Better bring a spare - so we can change things out to eliminate the obvious.

DaveB (hoglet) carried out extensive testing in relation to the timing. So if the WDC6522 is slightly different to the R6522 perhaps we need to find out just what it is.

Dave H :o)
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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by danielj » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:34 am

Something I've wondered with all of this... Does using a cmos processor in the mrb cause a difference in behaviour? I suspect it might...

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by hoglet » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:12 am

daveejhitchins wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:26 am
DaveB (hoglet) carried out extensive testing in relation to the timing. So if the WDC6522 is slightly different to the R6522 perhaps we need to find out just what it is.
I'm more than happy to take a look at this if someone could lend me a W65C22N.

Dave

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Re: Broken New AP5 Fixed & Electron Mouse testing

Post by Elminster » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:36 am

I have 3 spare wdc6522n’s got 5 from eBay for £18, so I have some spares.

Like wise I can bring my stuff to Cambridge, or do any tests people require in the meantime. As per my email to Dave removing MRB and testing is now on my list but might be a while. My i2c device turned up to test Electron 4 pin i2c header, be interesting to see if that behaves itself.

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