Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
Post Reply
User avatar
Bagpuss
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:09 pm
Location: Cornwall
Contact:

Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by Bagpuss » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:45 am

Hi All,

I've just received my two Master level shifters for the PiTube Direct, and found a small problem.

My Master has a VideoNuLA installed, and the level shifter boards won't fit as the VideoNuLA is too tall. I should have looked more closely at the images of the adapter board. I just assumed that they would have long pins like my original co-pro board. There's that assumption buggering things up again. :-)

Any thoughts on how best to extend the pins on the boards? I was thinking of getting some turned pin SIL socket strip and stacking it?

Thanks,

Andy.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless.

User avatar
marcusjambler
Posts: 595
Joined: Mon May 22, 2017 11:20 am
Location: Bradford
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by marcusjambler » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:55 am

I'm cranking these at the minute...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-54mm-Pitch ... Sw~gRV4Eqm


From memory I had to 'shave the ends' so they would sit close enough.

RobC
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by RobC » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:04 pm

I'll take a look at this later today. I now have one of Kjell's internal co-pro boards but haven't fitted it into a Master with VideoNuLA yet.

I believe Kjell does two versions (one with extended pins) but I went for the shorter version. I have various parts that might work and will report back.

I do know that VideoNuLA fits under the original internal co-pros and John Kortink's ReCo6502mini.

User avatar
Bagpuss
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:09 pm
Location: Cornwall
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by Bagpuss » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:41 pm

Thanks Rob. Much appreciated.

I've done a bit of a of bodge, thus:
connector-bodge.jpg
but this makes the copro too tall for the case to shut, as I've got an internal DataCentre mounted to the underside of the upper case.
internal-dc.jpg
The standard 65C02 copro fits perfectly, which means that the overall height of the level shifter and Pi Zero can't be taller than 28mm (that's the maximum height of the original CoPro plus pins), otherwise it will infringe on the CF card adapter that's attached to the DC.

I'm thinking I might have to remove the existing pins, and solder in some longer ones.
I was thinking about these.

Even then, I think it might be touch and go. :(
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless.

RobC
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by RobC » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:39 pm

Just had a quick look at fitting some Arduino stacking headers that I bought ages ago.

They give enough clearance to allow the VideoNuLA to be fitted under the internal Pi co-pro (with the short headers). It'll need a couple of the 12-pin variants to make the best connection. However, I don't know whether there's then enough room to allow an internal DC too as I don't have the internal version.

I'll do some more testing tonight.

JonC
Posts: 722
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 9:19 pm
Location: Wakefield
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by JonC » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:32 pm

Bagpuss wrote:...snip... , otherwise it will infringe on the CF card adapter that's attached to the DC.
Just a thought, a short IDE extension cable would move the adapter out of the way?
Jon
Image

User avatar
Bagpuss
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:09 pm
Location: Cornwall
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by Bagpuss » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:55 pm

JonC wrote:
Bagpuss wrote:...snip... , otherwise it will infringe on the CF card adapter that's attached to the DC.
Just a thought, a short IDE extension cable would move the adapter out of the way?
Good thought, JonC. I did think about doing that, but it then makes fitting the BeebSID and/or BeebOPL inside the case lid pretty much impossible.

As a starting point, I've slightly repositioned the DC in the case lid. I've also removed the existing pins from the level shifter, and will fit a slightly longer set when they arrive. I think that's the only way to fix this, without introducing too much height.

Will update once I've given the longer pins a try.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless.

User avatar
Bagpuss
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:09 pm
Location: Cornwall
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by Bagpuss » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:56 pm

Got it all to fit. Found some 12mm pins on eBay and they are perfect:
pitube-nula.jpg
The PiTube just clears the VideoNuLA and leaves plenty of space above for the internal DC.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless.

RobC
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by RobC » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:02 pm

Great job :D

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 3422
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by Elminster » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:30 pm

With all the new addons out, and coming out, there should be a competition of how much extra PCB you can get in case and still get the lid on.

User avatar
Bagpuss
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:09 pm
Location: Cornwall
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by Bagpuss » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:47 pm

It's getting a bit tight in my case already.

We've got the VideoNuLA, PiTube Direct, Econet, MultiOS and Internal DC.
Next project is to build a BeebSID to go along with my BeebOPL and see if I can fit both of them in the case. :D
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless.

User avatar
Elminster
Posts: 3422
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:09 am
Location: Essex, UK
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by Elminster » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:51 pm

Bagpuss wrote:It's getting a bit tight in my case already.

We've got the VideoNuLA, PiTube Direct, Econet, MultiOS and Internal DC.
Next project is to build a BeebSID to go along with my BeebOPL and see if I can fit both of them in the case. :D
I think my master has all of those, except the DC is external. But also has the internal copro and a gosdc as well. Just wondering how to get the new blitter/DMA board in there.......

Need to get around to fitting that uprated psu as well.

User avatar
simoni
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 6:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by simoni » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:31 pm

I managed to get an ADFS hard drive, a VFS hard drive, PiTubeDirect, upgraded PSU and a wireless mouse interface (SmallyMouse2) inside the case; there's also econet and MultiOS in there... and I didn't even need to stick anything to the lid :)
Master with upgrade.jpg
I need to get a VideoNuLA soon :)

User avatar
Bagpuss
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:09 pm
Location: Cornwall
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by Bagpuss » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:44 am

simoni wrote:I managed to get an ADFS hard drive, a VFS hard drive, PiTubeDirect, upgraded PSU and a wireless mouse interface (SmallyMouse2) inside the case; there's also econet and MultiOS in there... and I didn't even need to stick anything to the lid :)
I need to get a VideoNuLA soon :)
You're just showing off now. :D :D :D
Rob's got some more VideoNuLA's at the moment, so could be a good time to get one.
Been thinking about getting a SmallyMouse2. Seems to fit in the case really well. Almost by design?

On a different subject, I seem to remember reading about a way to get a second 1MHz bus connection internally to the Master.
I know you've got the port for the VFS card, but isn't that read-only?
What I'd like to be able to do is connect up a BeebSCSI for mass storage, still leaving the standard 1MHz bus port free to use with a BeebSID, BeebOPL and Music 5000 stuff. Is that actually possible?
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless.

User avatar
jgharston
Posts: 3508
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:22 am
Location: Whitby/Sheffield
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by jgharston » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:15 am

simoni wrote:I managed to get ... (SmallyMouse2) inside the case
Oo, that's an interesting gap near the front left. I have stuff at both sides of my Master and that's been stopping me putting my DataCentre inside as there'd be nowhere I could put the USB socket. But that might be an option. And I really don't like sticking stuff to the lid as I'm likely to forget and rip it off. The Acorn philosophy seems to be "will work with lid removed". (Shame about the Elk and Compact....)

I'm hankering to squeeze a MIDI interface inside my case. :) Might go in the modem slot.

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

RobC
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by RobC » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:16 pm

I may still have a (bare) SmallyMouse PCB left if anyone wants one...

User avatar
simoni
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed May 25, 2016 6:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by simoni » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:44 am

You're just showing off now
Well, the BeebSCSIs and SmallyMouse2 are my design, so I feel I have some bragging rights here ;)
Been thinking about getting a SmallyMouse2. Seems to fit in the case really well. Almost by design?
It's total luck, but it turns out that the SM2 screw holes align perfectly to those AIV SCSI mounting holes at the front-left of the case.

It would be nice to say I designed it that way, but it wouldn't be true :)

There are also micro SD card extenders available via ebay and the like. You plug them in like an SD card, but they are basically FPC cables with another card socket on the other end. I haven't tried one, but it seems like a simply way of making the SD card more accessible. It has to be said though, with a Gotek attached to the machine, there is little need to get at the SD cards once you are up and running unless you need to transfer files bigger than a floppy image. BeebSCSI's FAT file transfer feature allows that, but like an accessible USB port, you need access to the card.

Thanks to the PiTubeDirect this machine can boot GEM and then, one FX command later, boot Domesday - it's pretty neat!

Edit:

VFS is read only, but the BeebSCSI board isn't... It is possible to get ADFS working with the internal 1MHz bus, just needs someone to do it. The BeebSCSI project provides a board design that connects the BeebSCSI to the internal CMOS bus.
It's also possible to daisy-chain the BeebSCSI with other devices on the external bus - the termination is provided by the board though, so it should be at the end of the chain.

User avatar
trixster
Posts: 859
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:45 am
Location: York
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by trixster » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:15 pm

Bagpuss wrote:It's getting a bit tight in my case already.

We've got the VideoNuLA, PiTube Direct, Econet, MultiOS and Internal DC.
Next project is to build a BeebSID to go along with my BeebOPL and see if I can fit both of them in the case. :D
It's fun trying to fit as much stuff as you can into a beeb :)

In my BBC B I have: Internal Datacentre, VideoNula, Pi0 underneath(via sundby PiTubeDirect), IFEL ROM/RAM board, TurboSPI with MMFS, WE Shadow RAM card (a BeebSID is on the way).
In my Master I have: Internal DC, ReCo6502Mini, Pi0 on the tube externally, BeebSID, MultiOS, Smallymouse2.

As Rob has confirmed that VideoNula will fit under a ReCo I might just have to buy one for the Master :)
Last edited by trixster on Fri May 17, 2019 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
A3020 | A3000 | A420/1 | BBC B | Master Turbo | ZX48K | NeoGeo
Atom | Amiga A4000 | A3000 | A1200 | A500 | PC Engine | Enterprise
Falcon | Saturn | PS1 | SNES | CPC6128 | C64 | 3DO | MD | Jaguar | X68000 | CD32

RobC
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by RobC » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:25 pm

trixster wrote:As Rob has confirmed that VideoNula will fit under a ReCo I might just have to buy one for the Master :)
I've now got my VideoNuLA sitting under an internal Pi Co-pro in my main M128 using some Arduino stacking headers.

The ReCo6502 is a great bit of kit but I tend to use the Pi Co-pro more as being able to switch between the various co-pros is a real boon and I'm spending a lot of time playing with the Spectrum emulator :D

BBCNoob
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by BBCNoob » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:33 pm

Can someone link to bought parts, and what they did to make stuff fit?

I too have a Master with a VideoNuLA and a DC. I bought the Tube version a while back, because I was worried about the Pi fitting internally.

It seems to be working fine. Is there any advantage having it, internally?

I can't think personally of anything else that would take advantage of the Tube port that I may be interested in, but I'm new to the Beeb - so there might be something interesting I don't even know of...?

RobC
Posts: 2606
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:41 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by RobC » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:50 pm

BBCNoob wrote:Is there any advantage having it, internally?
I wouldn't say so. You could say one advantage is that the internal co-pro is safely tucked inside the machine but conversely it's harder to share between machines (and won't work with a B/B+ without the rare co-pro adapter).

I only bought the internal one because a few people asked me if my VideoNuLA boards fitted under it and I couldn't give them an answer.

User avatar
Bagpuss
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:09 pm
Location: Cornwall
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by Bagpuss » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:38 am

BBCNoob wrote:Can someone link to bought parts, and what they did to make stuff fit?
I bought these, which make it fit perfectly.

You need the 12/3mm versions, as there is a choice in a dropdown.
I unsoldered the existing pins, and replaced them with the above. If you don't have a desoldering gun, you will probably find it easier to snip the plastic that holds the pins together. That way, you can remove the pins one at a time, which greatly reduces the risk of damaging the board. I then used desoldering braid to clean up the holes ready for the replacement pins.

I opted for internal, as I wanted to make a machine that was as self contained as possible. As Rob says, there's no particular advantage in terms of functionality. For my BBC B and B+, I'm using the Matchbox CoPro. These are great on the older machines, as they fit underneath, but the gap on the Master isn't big enough.

The principle reason I went for the PiTube in the Master is down to the 1000MHz native ARM co-pro. This is something the Matchbox doesn't provide.
If you've not seen it, then Rob has created an excellent Spectrum emulator, which uses the VideoNuLA and PiTube to great effect. :D
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless.

BBCNoob
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by BBCNoob » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:00 pm

RobC wrote:I wouldn't say so.
Bagpuss wrote:If you've not seen it, then Rob has created an excellent Spectrum emulator, which uses the VideoNuLA and PiTube to great effect. :D

Thanks guys.

I already have a PiTubeDirect. I'm using a Pi Zero with it, since Pi Zero Ws seem to run slower, but can be made to go faster by using different files. But I couldn't get it to go as fast as a Pi Zero does.

I've got my Pi in the Tube port, with some electrical tape over it, to hopefully stop shorts. It's a tight fit, but it fits.

Since it can be made to fit inside, I may order the internal version, and mess about getting that fitted.

I haven't tried the Speccy emulator yet. I'm still working my way through Beeb stuff I never even knew of as a kid. :) I really only ever got to use them as WPs.

User avatar
KenLowe
Posts: 582
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by KenLowe » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:16 pm

BBCNoob wrote:I already have a PiTubeDirect. I'm using a Pi Zero with it, since Pi Zero Ws seem to run slower, but can be made to go faster by using different files. But I couldn't get it to go as fast as a Pi Zero does.
I've had similar problems. I just can't get the Zero W to run at full speed - no matter what config I put in place. I did flag this up in the PiTubeDirect thread, but I never found a solution.
BBCNoob wrote:I haven't tried the Speccy emulator yet.
Highly recommended!


BBCNoob
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:36 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by BBCNoob » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:30 pm

KenLowe wrote:[I've had similar problems. I just can't get the Zero W to run at full speed - no matter what config I put in place. I did flag this up in the PiTubeDirect thread, but I never found a solution.
I had to copy over bootcode.bin, fixup_cd.dat and start_cd.elf files, before I got it running at the faster speed.
dp11 wrote:For PiZero W try the beta release :

http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewto ... ct#p198487
Thanks, I'll give it a go. The last time I'd look at things was a week or so before that release.

User avatar
KenLowe
Posts: 582
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:35 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by KenLowe » Fri May 04, 2018 10:15 pm

dp11 wrote:For PiZero W try the beta release :

http://www.stardot.org.uk/forums/viewto ... ct#p198487
Sorry for the late reply. Confirming that this latest release works at full speed on the PiZeroW.

dp11
Posts: 928
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Master level shifter for PiTube Direct won't fit with VideoNuLA

Post by dp11 » Fri May 04, 2018 10:19 pm

Thanks for confirming.

Post Reply