BBC Master noob

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
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Lardo Boffin
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BBC Master noob

Post by Lardo Boffin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:05 pm

Hello all

I have been thinking about joining the Master race for a while now and have finally taken the plunge after seeing the work in progress Prince of Persia and knowing it will never land on the humble model B. :cry:

So I won a bid on a bunch of beeb stuff on eBay which includes a Master. Working condition unknown but believed to be working (belonged to the sellers father).

So... I know very little about these. I used one briefly during my A Levels to do a word processing course in order to fill a couple of gaps in my time table. This RSA in word processing is the nearest thing I have to a formal IT qualification! :oops:

I assume it will need capping to avoid nasty smells.
I also have seen various bits about leaky batteries.
I have a NULA in a model B - is it easy to fit in a master? Is the ULA likely to be socketed?
Finally I have seen Retroclinic Masters for sale with switchable OS for improved compatibility.

What do I need to do to get it up and running? Does anyone have a list of essentials for general programming / gaming usage?

I have an internal Datacentre and CF hdd in a beeb which I am contemplating moving across as the master seems a better place for it.

I’m sure all of this information is already contained within these pages but finding it all could be extremely time consuming!

Any advice welcome.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master

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danielj
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by danielj » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:11 pm

Good move :D

1) Yes, recap PSU - not *all* of them have the doom-caps, but most do.
2) ULA is soldered in, you need to desolder to fit NULA.
3) My personal recommendation is leave the DC in the beeb, and hook yourself up with a flashfloppy gotek and beebscsi mini - these work with the stock MOS ROM in the Master, and won't need any case modification :)
4) Get a retroclinic multiOS and you can run in beeb-mode too!

d.

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CMcDougall
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by CMcDougall » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:17 pm

Lardo Boffin wrote:assume it will need capping to avoid nasty smells. Is the ULA likely to be socketed?.
guts.jpg
guts
everything soldered to board, exept rom sockets :x hence only good for elk keyswitches :D
psu.jpg
psu newer
IF never PSU with the 2 red caps, these don't need done, but do the 220uF above danger sign
& older one with Rifa's, they will both need done as per usual.
ImageImageImage

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by Lardo Boffin » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:21 pm

Thanks - I am most likely to get the caps done by Retroclinic. I would never trust switching it on if I did it...
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master

RobC
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by RobC » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:14 pm

Lardo Boffin wrote:I have a NULA in a model B - is it easy to fit in a master? Is the ULA likely to be socketed?
As others have said, unfortunately, the Video ULA will almost certainly be soldered in on the Master.

However if you do want a VideoNuLA, as I've done for others, I'll desolder the ULA for free if you want to post your Master to me.

tom_seddon
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by tom_seddon » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:32 pm

Has yours got a replacement battery pack? If not, info here: http://lionels.orpheusweb.co.uk/CompNyb ... onfig.html

I made mine myself. (Always worth getting some soldering practice in, I figure.) As suggested in the instructions I used a 4 x AA battery holder, which I probably got from Maplin, and soldered wires and diode into the 4th compartment. Then I added some electrical tape to cover up my inept soldering, folded it all together, and the result actually looks fairly neat: http://www.tomseddon.plus.com/beeb/mast ... n_shot.jpg, http://www.tomseddon.plus.com/beeb/mast ... y_pack.jpg

That was in 2010, I think, and I'm only on my 2nd or 3rd set of batteries.

I was a bit uncertain about the Master initially, since I always used the model B at the time, but I'd never go back. I used a BBC B with Opus Challenger, so I was used to PAGE=&E00 already, but the Master also has sideways RAM, MOS support for shadow RAM, Tube support built in, permanently-exploded UDGs, and I'm pretty sure OSWRCH is quicker too. I also really like being able to configure permanent *FX12,2 in the CMOS memory.

--Tom

P.S. I've got a ReCo6502Mini in mine: http://www.zeridajh.org/hardware/reco6502mini/index.htm - I'm a satisfied customer and think this a worthy purchase. Perhaps PiTubeDirect makes this a bit redundant in some respects, but it's entirely plug and play, and personally I like the authenticity of having a real live 6502 in there. It's "only" 16MHz, but it still really flies compared to the normal Master. Even LISTing a BASIC program is visibly quicker.

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1024MAK
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by 1024MAK » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:11 am

Some Masters may have other X2 suppression capacitors other than Rifa or the type in Colin's photo. I have two Master 128 machines (ex-school) that have yellow rectangular capacitors. But it is possible that the school had the machine PSUs serviced.

If the existing battery pack is too weak, flat, disconnected, or missing, the machine will power up with the configuration settings set to random values EVERY time. When you get it, shout out and we will guide you further.

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by Lardo Boffin » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:53 am

My Master arrived and here is the inside. The batteries have leaked somewhat...
D7A1600E-48E5-431D-913F-D618ACEA3D02.jpeg
Whats the next move? I have not switched it on yet!

Lardo
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master

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DutchAcorn
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by DutchAcorn » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:12 am

Lardo Boffin wrote:My Master arrived and here is the inside. The batteries have leaked somewhat...

D7A1600E-48E5-431D-913F-D618ACEA3D02.jpeg

Whats the next move? I have not switched it on yet!

Lardo
Remove the battery pack, remove batteries from the pack and clean the pack with vinigar. Rinse with water and let it dry.
Switch on with the “R” key pressed. Press Break to reset CMOS and briefly check if it works (it will appear to hang looking for an ADFS disc).
Recommended: (as mentioned earlier) change the usual capacitors to prevent the magic smoke.
Paul

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CMcDougall
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by CMcDougall » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:14 am

cable tie cut battery housing out, scrape off green/white powder, put 3x good batts in.

would not bother with PSU caps at mo, lets see if it goes! (if they blow, so what, nothing bad will happen, just smells)

wire up to scrart TV, power on with R key down, so can reset CMOS, instruction for then *CONF. x , y , x
on net are about 8)
being: http://lionels.orpheusweb.co.uk/CompNyb ... onfig.html
ImageImageImage

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marcusjambler
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by marcusjambler » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:17 am

That looks like its been propped up on its back edge and the battery goo has been dripping on the rear fascia
If it was mine I'd get the PCB out and possibly take the RF modulator off to check the PCB for corrosion

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by Lardo Boffin » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:20 am

DutchAcorn wrote:
Lardo Boffin wrote:My Master arrived and here is the inside. The batteries have leaked somewhat...

D7A1600E-48E5-431D-913F-D618ACEA3D02.jpeg

Whats the next move? I have not switched it on yet!

Lardo
Remove the battery pack, remove batteries from the pack and clean the pack with vinigar. Rinse with water and let it dry.
Switch on with the “R” key pressed. Press Break to reset CMOS and briefly check if it works (it will appear to hang looking for an ADFS disc).
Recommended: (as mentioned earlier) change the usual capacitors to prevent the magic smoke.
Thanks. Battery pack removed and I get a brrr beep and this! Hopefully normal.
990FB578-3DE4-4C20-94B1-5C1FD787CBE7.jpeg
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by Lardo Boffin » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:23 am

Here is the motherboard:-
3ACC0413-F404-4C07-83CA-A6ACB27BA357.jpeg
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master

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DutchAcorn
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by DutchAcorn » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:48 am

Lardo Boffin wrote:
Thanks. Battery pack removed and I get a brrr beep and this! Hopefully normal.

990FB578-3DE4-4C20-94B1-5C1FD787CBE7.jpeg
Not what I expected but definitly encouraging!

Apparently you did not reset CMOS or the “R” key is malfunctioning.

The battery pack may still have had enough juice to retain the CMOS settings. Don’t be alarmed if it malfunctions next time you switch on. With no battery pack connected he CMOS settings will be lost after some time. Again- restart with “R” pressed if that happens.
Paul

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sydney
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by sydney » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:10 pm

I though resetting the CMOS with r only worked on OS3.5

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danielj
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by danielj » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:15 pm

It works on all of them, but you get garbage values on 3.2...

d.

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by Lardo Boffin » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:52 pm

Remembered to press R this time...

Got

‘CMOS RAM reset.
Press Break to continue’

followed by

‘Acorn MOS
Acorn ADFS’

and then it hangs.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master

RobC
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by RobC » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:31 pm

Lardo Boffin wrote:and then it hangs.
That's probably because ADFS is looking to boot from a disk.

Try doing Escape-Break [*] and then setting the configuration options as described in the manual (or the link above).

[*] I think Escape-Break will get you out of ADFS but I'm not near enough to my Master to try it out!

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by Lardo Boffin » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:34 pm

RobC wrote:
Lardo Boffin wrote:and then it hangs.
That's probably because ADFS is looking to boot from a disk.

Try doing Escape-Break [*] and then setting the configuration options as described in the manual (or the link above).

[*] I think Escape-Break will get you out of ADFS but I'm not near enough to my Master to try it out!
Thanks. I don’t have a manual so will follow the link once I have some spare time.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master

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danielj
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by danielj » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:45 pm

CTRL-F and break will stop it trying to mount a disk.

d.

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1024MAK
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by 1024MAK » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:50 pm

danielj wrote:CTRL-F and break will stop it trying to mount a disk.

d.
Until you turn it off, then on again...

You need some new cells...

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

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DutchAcorn
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by DutchAcorn » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:27 pm

At first glance the Master seems to work fine.

After you have reconnected the cleaned and refilled the battery pack please follow these instructions to get back to the configuration with DFS and Basic you saw earlier: viewtopic.php?t=4854#p44150

Next thing to check is if all the keys work.
Paul

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1024MAK
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by 1024MAK » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:39 pm

@Lardo Boffin

Flat batteries can cause all kinds of flaming problems...

Various BBC Master manuals including the Welcome Guide are here (bottom of page) ;-)

BBC Master Service Manual

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

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1024MAK
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by 1024MAK » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:47 pm

Configuring after fitting a new battery pack

Also this Acorn Application note is useful- 203 - Master Series Configuration Guidelines
http://8bs.com/othrdnld/manuals/appnote/AppNote-203.zip or here
http://www.8bs.com/submit/acornappspdf/203.pdf

Mark
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BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by Lardo Boffin » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:03 pm

1024MAK wrote:@Lardo Boffin

Flat batteries can cause all kinds of flaming problems...

Mark
That explains why Royal Mail won’t ship rechargeable batteries then. Clearly they have put some of the boxes they have delivered to me under a 100t press.
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
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Lardo Boffin
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by Lardo Boffin » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:07 pm

Looking at the old cells taken out they were not rechargeable. However there are no additional components present in the case to stop this. :?

Unless they are in here?
040FAEF4-B082-458F-BED0-1A52E43DDEB5.jpeg
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master

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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by cmorley » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:29 pm

Looks like there is probably a diode case and a resistor in there...

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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by daveejhitchins » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:00 pm

Lardo Boffin wrote:That explains why Royal Mail won’t ship rechargeable batteries then. Clearly they have put some of the boxes they have delivered to me under a 100t press.
Well, they will . . . But you need to comply! You can't send a battery or batteries on their own! You can send a battery if it's fitted in equipment and you can also send a spare with it!! - You must, however, apply the appropriate label to the package. I also think there are other rules . . . I found out about the above rules when I enquired about shipping ABRs and ATIs,

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

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Lardo Boffin
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by Lardo Boffin » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:09 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:
Lardo Boffin wrote:That explains why Royal Mail won’t ship rechargeable batteries then. Clearly they have put some of the boxes they have delivered to me under a 100t press.
Well, they will . . . But you need to comply! You can't send a battery or batteries on their own! You can send a battery if it's fitted in equipment and you can also send a spare with it!! - You must, however, apply the appropriate label to the package. I also think there are other rules . . . I found out about the above rules when I enquired about shipping ABRs and ATIs,

Dave H :D
I’ve never actually sent anything with batteries - I was making (an obscure) reference to how badly mashed some of the boxes they have delivered to me have been! :D
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Retroclinic Datacentre + HDD, Viglen twin 40/80 5.25" discs, acorn cassette, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
BBC Master

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1024MAK
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Re: BBC Master noob

Post by 1024MAK » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:27 pm

Lardo Boffin wrote:Looking at the old cells taken out they were not rechargeable. However there are no additional components present in the case to stop this. :?
Any "non-rechargeable" battery pack for a Master will have a diode and a resistor, as the connector on the Master motherboard is a straight feed off the main 5V power rail (via a anti-backfeed diode).

Mark
For a "Complete BBC Games Archive" visit www.bbcmicro.co.uk NOW!
BeebWiki‬ - for answers to many questions...

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