Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

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hoglet
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:55 pm

BeebMaster wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:35 pm
Am I doing it wrong?
What file system are you trying to load it from?
BeebMaster wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:35 pm
Also PAGE (at &8F00) is lower than the load address of BASIC, so amn't I going to overwrite BASIC with BASIC at some point?!
Indeed....

It needs a loader writing that will relocate it to very high in memory.
Last edited by hoglet on Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by BeebMaster » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:12 pm

Well well! ANFS strikes again! If I *BAS135 from ADFS it executes fine (although I still get a disc search and not found sometimes).

According to the REM lines I am on Fer-de-lance-dev, commit ID 2ce115d, which I think is the fix applied earlier in the year for the ANFS 2-byte bug thing.

I still lose BASIC on BREAK, is that normal?
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:27 pm

BeebMaster wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:12 pm
Well well! ANFS strikes again! If I *BAS135 from ADFS it executes fine (although I still get a disc search and not found sometimes).
Is this a Beeb or a Master?

What version of ANFS?

I wonder if large file support is needed?
BeebMaster wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:12 pm
Well well!
I still lose BASIC on BREAK, is that normal?
I think so. It's the same for me.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by BeebMaster » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:32 pm

Master 128, MOS 3.20, ANFS 4.25.

It also has real internal 65C102 co-processor, I am using external PiTube Pi-Zero.

Funny that it happens with the native ARM but not the ARM Second Processor.
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by BeebMaster » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:38 pm

Native ARM doesn't seem to load anything of any size from Econet. The smallest file I tried *LOADing was just 156 bytes. When I've loaded BASIC from ADFS, I then can't load any BASIC in from the net. It appears to do the load but the listing is blank and TOP stays at &8F02.
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:43 pm

OK, that definitely sounds like a bug in the Native ARM Co Pro.

I'm not sure I have the hardware to reproduce thus, unless I can use an A5000 as the file server.

I only have 1 1/2 Masters (the second one is missing a power supply).

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by BeebMaster » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:44 pm

I'm wondering if I haven't got the right firmware now for some reason...I seem to be back to those problems we were having in January. If I save some BASIC to the Econet file server from the Native ARM it just saves as a load of zeros, but the save (and loading back) work from the 6502 and ARM 2nd processors.
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:11 pm

BeebMaster wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:44 pm
I'm wondering if I haven't got the right firmware now for some reason...I seem to be back to those problems we were having in January. If I save some BASIC to the Econet file server from the Native ARM it just saves as a load of zeros, but the save (and loading back) work from the 6502 and ARM 2nd processors.
I think you need to be running Fer-de-lance-dev commit ID 2ce115d (or later) on any Pi Tube Direct that's using ANFS (i.e. both the file server and the client).

Dave

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by BeebMaster » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:48 pm

Right. That's all right then, I am only running the one Pi Tube. The file server is a 65C102.
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by zolbatar » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:34 am

Just a quick question, I had a Pi 3B+ on my PiTubeDirect but reused it for regular RISC OS stuff. Is the Pi Zero still good for use? I presume not wildly slower than the 3B+?

I don't mind buying either as they are both cheap enough, but just feels "neater" having a smaller daughterboard inside the case, and of course, probably less heat as well.

Cheers,
Daryl.
Master 128 with DataCentre and RPi co-pro.
RPi B+ & 3B+ both running RISC OS.
Poorly A4000 (battery damage, partially repaired).

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:38 am

zolbatar wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:34 am
Just a quick question, I had a Pi 3B+ on my PiTubeDirect but reused it for regular RISC OS stuff. Is the Pi Zero still good for use? I presume not wildly slower than the 3B+?
A Pi Zero will be fine - PiTubeDirect only uses a single core anyway.

I use the Pi Zero exclusively, because it's smaller, neater and draws significantly less power.

The main benefits of the Pi 3B+ or the Pi 4 are the larger cache and higher clock speed.

Dave
Last edited by hoglet on Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by dp11 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:04 am

Pizero will be fine. I don't have all the figure to hand , but

PiZero(w) ( ARM1176JZF-S ARMv6 1GHz $5.00 to $10.00 +TAXes )
armcode 6502 : 290MHz

RPi3B+ ( Cortex A53 ARMv8 1.4GHz $35.00 + TAXes )
RPi3A+ ( Cortex A53 ARMv8 1.4GHz $25.00 + TAXes ) should work but untested
armcode 6502 : 339MHz
lib6502 : 131.56MHz
Z80 86.78MHz
ARM 151.46MHz
nativeARM : 20,735MHz

RPi4 ( Cortex A72 ARMv8 1.5GHz $35.00 + TAXes)
armcode 6502 : 370MHz
lib6502 : 237MHz
Z80 126MHz
ARM 246MHz
nativeARM : so fast it breaks clocksp

As you can see from the armcode 6502 cost per MHz the PiZero wins. Other cores will have a greater performance increase with newer ARM architectures as they are written in C
Last edited by dp11 on Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by zolbatar » Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:43 pm

Thanks for the advice. Ordered a Zero WH.

I'm going to try and port some of my RISC OS 3D code over and see how much I can eek out of my 128 for graphics. I know right now that video write speed will be the bottleneck obviously.

Daryl.
Master 128 with DataCentre and RPi co-pro.
RPi B+ & 3B+ both running RISC OS.
Poorly A4000 (battery damage, partially repaired).

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by BeebMaster » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:22 am

hoglet wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:43 pm
OK, that definitely sounds like a bug in the Native ARM Co Pro.

I'm not sure I have the hardware to reproduce thus, unless I can use an A5000 as the file server.

I only have 1 1/2 Masters (the second one is missing a power supply).
The A5000 can be used as a Level 4 fileserver although I'm not sure how much of a fileserver is needed for testing. I can't just recall whether the problem with ANFS we had previously was restricted to Econet data transmissions or whether actually saving the data to some filing system was part of the problem. You might get away without a fileserver by using a transmit or remote poke operation from the A5000 to the Pi-ed up Master.
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by map856 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:51 pm

Does the EasterEgg release support the copro=N option in config.txt?

I've attempted inserting copro=14 (to start up with no coprocessor) in a couple of places but it seems to be getting ignored, i.e. it still starts up in the default 6502 second processor configuration.

Is there perhaps a specific location in config.txt where it has to be inserted?

Martin

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:07 am

map856 wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:51 pm
Does the EasterEgg release support the copro=N option in config.txt?

I've attempted inserting copro=14 (to start up with no coprocessor) in a couple of places but it seems to be getting ignored, i.e. it still starts up in the default 6502 second processor configuration.
copro=N should be added into cmdline.txt, not config.txt

(also, everything in cmdline.txt needs to be on the same line)

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by map856 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:39 am

Ah, ok! Easy enough. I'll try that. Thanks Dave.

Update:

That worked just fine of course.

But now I'm curious as to what the other parameters in cmdline.txt do and whether they should be left there:

copro=0 copro1speed=3 tube_delay=0 elk_mode=0

:-k
Last edited by map856 on Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by BBCMaster2019 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:49 pm

Sorry if this is a daft question but I'm having issues getting Pi Zero W to work with the newest PiTubeDirect EggEater 23rd December 2018 Release.

After a quick look I reliased that there was a config file and I possibly need to remove the references to the other Pi versions. as the Pi 1 is the same cpu as the zero. I decided to use this with no change.If I press the Break key the Pi is turning on as I see the activity light come on but it goes straight off if I press break a second time. I had a quick look at the earlier versions and noticed there was an image file in them for the Pi Zero. So is the zero only supported on earlier versions?or am i missing something.I have also noticed that the model of pi Zero supported in the 1.3 (with no Wi-fi and blu tooth) mine is the Pi Zero 1.3 W with Wifi and Bluetooth I have tried this with a 1GB and 2GB Micro SD card. This is all installed in a BBC Master with internal Raspberry Pi Co Processor BBC master Adapter Issue 2B. I also have a Smart SPI installed. I dont have the Smart SPI Rom installed as I found loading MAMMFS into shadow ram better. So suspect this should be ok to leave attached.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
Last edited by BBCMaster2019 on Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by hoglet » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:36 am

BBCMaster2019 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:49 pm
Sorry if this is a daft question but I'm having issues getting Pi Zero W to work with the newest PiTubeDirect EggEater 23rd December 2018 Release.
It should without needing to make any config changes at all.

The Pi One, Pi Zero and Pi Zero W all use the same Broadcom SoC and so are able to share the same Kernel.

The activity light behaviour is as expected - it toggles state when there is activity.
BBCMaster2019 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:49 pm
This is all installed in a BBC Master with internal Raspberry Pi Co Processor BBC master Adapter Issue 2B.
Which vendor did you get this from?
BBCMaster2019 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:49 pm
Thanks in advance for any advice.
What Tube related *CONFIGURE setting do you have?

Can you try:
- *CONFIGURE TUBE
- *CONFIGURE EXTUBE
- <Ctrl Break>

I appeciate that you have it connected to the internal tube, but for various reasons on most systems setting EXTUBE is more reliable.

Dave

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by BBCMaster2019 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:35 am

Thank you for the reply
hoglet wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:36 am
Which vendor did you get this from?
Retro Clinic

hoglet wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:36 am

What Tube related *CONFIGURE setting do you have?

Can you try:
- *CONFIGURE TUBE
- *CONFIGURE EXTUBE
- <Ctrl Break>

I appeciate that you have it connected to the internal tube, but for various reasons on most systems setting EXTUBE is more reliable.

Dave
Sorry I hadnt seen any reference about *Configure When I looked around for info. The *Configure Commands above have got it to work. :-)

Thank you again

I've even tested it now by loading 6502 Second Processor version of Elite
BBC Master
MICRO-SPI MMC
Opus Disk Drive
Use MAMMFS in shadow Ram So I can use IMTOD/DTOIM as couldn't find away to transfer to\form Disks with Smart SPI.
Internal RaspBerry PI Co-Processor Adpater Board + Pi Zero (PiTubeDirect)

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Re: Pi-based Co-Pro on the cheap - 100MHz 6502 for £10? (now 274MHz)

Post by BeebMaster » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:22 pm

hoglet wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:55 pm
BeebMaster wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:35 pm
Also PAGE (at &8F00) is lower than the load address of BASIC, so amn't I going to overwrite BASIC with BASIC at some point?!
Indeed....

It needs a loader writing that will relocate it to very high in memory.
This became a problem recently as I am using the Native ARM so I can have a very large (eg. 8MB) data buffer in BASIC.

My first solution was to set PAGE to &20000 and add this to my *KEY10 definition (which already includes *GO F12C to re-start BASIC without having to load the file again).

Now I have discovered that BASIC 1.35 appears to be relocatable, so it can be loaded anywhere. I've set its load/exec addresses to &1800000 so it's well above HIMEM. (I have to *GO it from 180012C however).

The first time I did it, I used an extra nought and loaded it at &180000000, which still worked, so the co-pro must be able to access at least 400MB of RAM if anyone wanted to increase the available RAM to the Native ARM co-pro, for instance...

A couple more quirks with the Native ARM if I may:

If there's a BASIC program loaded and you generate an error in immediate mode, the error message is appended with "at line <last line of BASIC>".

*. (but no other * command I've tried, including *CAT) always reports the ARM Tube help line.
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