BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

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Pernod
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Pernod » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:26 pm

When time permits, could you take a hires photo of the control panel of the wall unit? This can be used as artwork in MAME, like the monitor surround in jsbeeb. It'd need to be well lit, no flash reflection, and photoed square on to avoid distortion. I can crop/cleanup any of the surround afterwards, just the silver panel containing buttons and screen.
- Nigel

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:23 pm

No problem with photo . . . Had a thought . . . Are you running the wall-box ROM or hideaway ROM? Both Masters. If the former then there will be limited controls, the hideaway, however, will have a normal keyboard. I'm not sure if the wall box actually has a keyboard - I'll check. It will have the 'user' controls and things like the coin mechanism. I'll also see how they are 'talking' to each other - Serial?

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Pernod » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:35 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:Are you running the wall-box ROM or hideaway ROM?
I only have the hideaway ROM, are they different?
- Nigel

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:40 pm

Just looked back in the thread . . . I'll get the other one tomorrow. Unlike the later Fender this one has a cartridge in each and every unit - that was good for ABR sales :D

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by johnkenyon » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:32 am

daveejhitchins wrote:No problem with photo . . . Had a thought . . . Are you running the wall-box ROM or hideaway ROM? Both Masters. If the former then there will be limited controls, the hideaway, however, will have a normal keyboard. I'm not sure if the wall box actually has a keyboard - I'll check. It will have the 'user' controls and things like the coin mechanism. I'll also see how they are 'talking' to each other - Serial?

Dave H :D
The hideaway was capable of being controlled by a HGM Mk6 wallbox using the Mk6's RS232 interface.

Not 100% sure how it handled multiple wallboxes. I have a feeling that the serial interfaces of the hideaway and wall boxes were daisy chained via an interface board in the hideaway. Serial out of the hideaway fed serial in of first wallbox which then fed serial in of the next device etc.

Edit:
The wallbox+hideaway definitely uses daisy chained RS232 - the links for the unused connections are jumpered Tx/Rx on wallbox and hideaway.

Wire the wallbox+hideaway as follows:

Comms:
At the hideaway, 3 core cable from the terminal block labeled "WB1"
At the wallbox on the power supply board:
Terminals 1,2,3 - connect to WB1
Power:
Terminals 4 and 5 - these will be a 25 or 28v AC power supply feed. which will feed the primary of the transformer.
Back in the day (at HGM) the wallbox transformer would have a 240v secondary winding to feed a fluorescent tube as well as windings for the 5v and 12 v power - we used to feed the 240v winding from the mains to power up wallboxes for test purposes..

You have a choice to power the wallbox:
(a) find a 25/28v feed somewhere in the hideaway (I can't see one)
(b) Disconnect the wallbox power supply and use a standard Master PSU (note that the reset/battery/keyboard/coin mech PCB will need connecting to +5v to work, and will probably have a +12v connection to feed the coin mech)
(c) Disconnect any 240v load (e.g. monitor) from the wallbox transformer and put 240v mains on the 240v secondary (and power the monitor directly from the mains. Reduce the load on the transformer by disconnecting the coin-mech (13/15 way ribbon cable).

Don't connect mains to terminals 4+5 unless you want to see magic smoke.

johnkenyon

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:40 am

johnkenyon wrote:The hideaway was capable of being controlled by a HGM Mk6 wallbox using the Mk6's RS232 interface.
I'm not sure if I ever saw a mix of wall boxes with the DiscMaster series. Arbiter, as far as I'm aware, only used product made by AMS Ltd. (Amusement Machine Services) of Heckmondwike. The DiscMaster series was their first product followed by the Fender, which we were involved with.

Edit: They may have been mixed and matched by companies who installed and maintained them, however! We only got to see the Fender sites and there was only a few of those in the north of the country. I believe, limited to Bass Charrington pubs.
johnkenyon wrote:Not 100% sure how it handled multiple wallboxes. I have a feeling that the serial interfaces of the hideaway and wall boxes were daisy chained via an interface board in the hideaway. Serial out of the hideaway fed serial in of first wallbox which then fed serial in of the next device etc.
I'm not too sure about the DiscMaster's communication, however, the Fender did use serial, either daisy chained or parallel - dependant on site requirements. I'm sure the details of the DiscMaster's communication capabilities will be revealed as I progress the refurb.

Once I get a PC, with a 286 or 386, built I'll be able to install PCAD Master designer (I still have all the dongles etc.) and recover all the early schematics for the Fender.

This site shows the DiscMaster series. I seem to have the major part of a hideaway and a wall box. If you follow the Patent it refers to a Bernard Heart. He would have have been responsible for the design of the DiscMaster, including the software, I believe, along with the design of the Fender. He is also included in a patent for the Fender design too. We worked with him, at AMS, on the early design goals of the Fender, however, he left the company soon after. It may be worth me trying to find him!

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by johnkenyon » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:13 am

daveejhitchins wrote:
johnkenyon wrote:The hideaway was capable of being controlled by a HGM Mk6 wallbox using the Mk6's RS232 interface.
I'm not sure if I ever saw a mix of wall boxes with the DiscMaster series. Arbiter, as far as I'm aware, only used product made by AMS Ltd. (Amusement Machine Services) of Heckmondwike. The DiscMaster series was their first product followed by the Fender, which we were involved with.

Edit: They may have been mixed and matched by companies who installed and maintained them, however! We only got to see the Fender sites and there was only a few of those in the north of the country. I believe, limited to Bass Charrington pubs.
I worked for HGM (Hazel Grove Music) in '90-'92 doing customer support and repairs on their wallboxes, "Mk2 CD hideaway" (aka DDA), pool table controllers and other random "background music" stuff.

The Mk6 wallbox was capable of controlling different types of jukebox - you just inserted the right version EPROM, and connected the jukebox/hideaway to the right terminals. It used a Z80 CPU and had RS232, RS485 and Wurlitzer interfaces.

They looked like: http://www.jukebox-world.de/Forum/Archi ... Escort.htm (early model), and the later models looked like http://www.jukebox-world.de/Forum/Archi ... rt.htm#Mk6 had a mechanism which rotated to show the CD contents, and two cancel buttons.

I remember the design engineer having issues with the first version of the Arbiter software - loss of comms back to the hideaway, which required the hideaway to be power cycled. This was partially fixed in software and partially fixed in hardware - the board with the WB1 WB2 etc terminals also generates the reset to the Master board (it operates the break key via the keyboard connector) using a 555 timer. We increased the reset delay on that board and the problems went away. (The hideaway was coming out of reset before the HGM wallbox)

So if you can find someone with a Mk6 Wallbox with a V34.1 EPROM installed and don't mind disassembling Z80 machine code...

/john

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:06 pm

Thanks for that, John . . . Interesting. I remember seeing the MK6 but don't remember seeing the earlier version. I'm from Bradford, initially, what was your area?

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by tricky » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:46 pm

I installed some of each of those wall boxes as well as "Arbiter" wall boxes and standalones while working for Associated Leisure based in Dawlish Warren in the late 80s.

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by johnkenyon » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:00 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:Thanks for that, John . . . Interesting. I remember seeing the MK6 but don't remember seeing the earlier version. I'm from Bradford, initially, what was your area?

Dave H :D
Back in the day, I was based in the HGM factory in Cheadle Village and then Heaton Mersey, Stockport.

The picture I linked to was an original Mk6 wallbox - very very heavy metal box, which was phased out of production around 1991.
The wooden version leveraged the existing CNC wood cutting/routing kit they had for making pool tables (rather than buying in the boxes from outside suppliers)
Most of the old ones have probably been made into razor blades by now, It's a good few years since I last saw a wooden Mk6 in a pub.

/john

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:08 pm

tricky wrote:I installed some of each of those wall boxes as well as "Arbiter" wall boxes and standalones while working for Associated Leisure based in Dawlish Warren in the late 80s.
You would have missed the Fender then, as I think the initial release was about 91.

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Coeus » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:15 pm

So is this, by any chance, the reason Master motherboards seem more common on eBay that complete masters?

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:21 pm

Coeus wrote:So is this, by any chance, the reason Master motherboards seem more common on eBay that complete masters?
Now there's a thought . . .

Here are the DiscMaster Hideaway and Wallbox ROMs

Dave H :D
Arbiter DiscMaster - Main and Hideaway.zip
(18.39 KiB) Downloaded 17 times
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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Pernod » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:06 pm

daveejhitchins wrote:Here are the DiscMaster Hideaway and Wallbox ROMs
Thanks. We get a different DATA CARTRIDGE NOT FOUND screen:
0000.png
But when I insert the cartridge it just hangs, so recognises the cartridge but missing something. Investigation required ...
- Nigel

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by johnkenyon » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:29 pm

Pernod wrote:
daveejhitchins wrote:Here are the DiscMaster Hideaway and Wallbox ROMs
Thanks. We get a different DATA CARTRIDGE NOT FOUND screen:
0000.png
But when I insert the cartridge it just hangs, so recognises the cartridge but missing something. Investigation required ...
I'm assuming that the screen shot is from the wallbox.

If it is, then my next question is - have you connected the wallbox to the hideaway board?
If you haven't then the "Unit out of order" message is to be expected - if communications is lost you need to display a message which indicates to Mr 8Ace/Brown Bottle/Punter that the jukebox is out of order. On a HGM Mk6 wallbox, you got four dashes in the display, and I think the coin mechanism was locked out (so otherwise valid coins would be rejected rather than ending up in the cash box).

There is also the possibility that the wallbox does some kind of data validation to ensure that the CD selection data held on the wallbox and hideaway cartridges is consistent. (I seem to remember that some models/types of jukebox/hideaway used to tell the wallbox how many CDs were loaded and how many tracks each CD held at power up, so you couldn't select the 15th track from a 14 track CD, or select the 61st disc in a carousel holding 60 discs...)

/john

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:41 am

Nigel . . .

You may have to drag another Master into the fray, connecting them via the serial ports - I'm not contemplating looking at my DiscMaster system for a while - Would be sorting out the Fender first. I also need to complete a library management system so that programming/reprogramming of the cartridge and be carried out.

Too many projects . . . . .

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by Pernod » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:40 am

daveejhitchins wrote:You may have to drag another Master into the fray, connecting them via the serial ports
Yeah, but the Master in MAME needs alot of work before that can happen, so won't be happening anytime soon.

From the flyers there are three variants, and currently have the Discmate and Discmonitor that form the deluxe model. The ROM from the Discmate identifies itself as Discmaster which is the all-in-one solution, so may take a closer look at that to see if it contains everything needed to run from a single Master.
- Nigel

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by johnkenyon » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:14 pm

Pernod wrote:
daveejhitchins wrote:You may have to drag another Master into the fray, connecting them via the serial ports
Yeah, but the Master in MAME needs alot of work before that can happen, so won't be happening anytime soon.

From the flyers there are three variants, and currently have the Discmate and Discmonitor that form the deluxe model. The ROM from the Discmate identifies itself as Discmaster which is the all-in-one solution, so may take a closer look at that to see if it contains everything needed to run from a single Master.
DiscMaster is a "jukebox". (usually where most people want to hear music)
DiscMonitor is a "wallbox".
DiscMate is a "hideaway" (usually lives in the pub cellar), has no coin mechanism, and only needs a "service user interface" for an engineer.

You can use a jukebox as a hideaway, so my money is on the DiscMaster and DiscMate using the same software, and then there being a mechanism to switch the the software into "Service" mode. A popular way of doing that was to have a door switch which switched to service mode when you opened the cabinet, and the engineer could switch back into normal mode by holding the button down with their thumb.

Personally I'd like to see some high res photos (back and front) of the interface board (the board common to both units), to see if I can suss out how they managed to get multiple buttons, and four coin channels, into the Master, given that the only active components appear to be one 14 pin chip (possibly a 556), four opto isolators, and 5 discrete transistors. In fact the active components seem to be outnumbered by zero ohm links.

I hope MAME can simulate the analogue port...

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by daveejhitchins » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:51 am

johnkenyon wrote:DiscMaster is a "jukebox". (usually where most people want to hear music)
DiscMonitor is a "wallbox".
DiscMate is a "hideaway" (usually lives in the pub cellar), has no coin mechanism, and only needs a "service user interface" for an engineer.
Thanks for that information, John. I can tell you all about the Fender, but know very little about the DiscMaster series.
johnkenyon wrote: Personally I'd like to see some high res photos (back and front) of the interface board (the board common to both units), to see if I can suss out how they managed to get multiple buttons, and four coin channels, into the Master, given that the only active components appear to be one 14 pin chip (possibly a 556), four opto isolators, and 5 discrete transistors. In fact the active components seem to be outnumbered by zero ohm links.
I'll see what I can do over the coming weeks.

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Re: BBC controlled CD Jukebox, great find but need the space!

Post by fordp » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:07 pm

Coeus wrote:So is this, by any chance, the reason Master motherboards seem more common on eBay that complete masters?
My master motherboard came from some sort of medical scanner :wink:
FordP (Simon Ellwood)
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