Matchbox co-processor new users

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jonb
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Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by jonb » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:36 am

Hi there

I'm about to receive a matchbox co-processor. Can we have a discussion about it from the noobie perspective? Are there any documents, web pages or other how-to guides out there?

I have two use cases. One, a 6502 co processor for running Tube Elite. The other, a Z80 co processor for running CP/M. I'm looking for guidance on how to configure these setups, and let's assume I have no prior knowledge.

For CP/M I would like to have some sort of emulated hard drive. I have a MMC device and sideways RAM (both Sprow's).

Cheers
JonB
:D

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by jonb » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:59 am

I guess we might start with this thread...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9994

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by fordp » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:42 am

I suggest we crowd source a user guide here:

https://github.com/hoglet67/CoPro6502/wiki
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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by Lardo Boffin » Fri Dec 25, 2015 9:56 am

Merry Christmas! (Edit for extra info).

Not sure how noob you are but:

You need a DNFS ROM to run a co-proc.

If you have never connected a co-proc to your Beeb you may find it doesn't work due to a build up of dust etc. on the connectors. I had that - I had to plug and unplug my Acorn 6502 about 10 times to get it to work.

In order to run CP/M you will need discs set up. I have an environment running under BeebEm on my PC while waiting for my matchbox. You can download the Acorn discs from the Internet. I think i got mine from http://mdfs.net/Mirror/Image/AcornCPM/

You will need to download a PDF of the Acorn
Z80 user guide. Try this http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... dproc.html

More precise link to user manual. http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... procUG.pdf

See page 18 onwards for details on how to set up the program discs. Note that if you use BeebEm you will need to make the new discs dsd (double sided) not ssd (single sided) as CP/M effectively uses 2 sides of 2 drives to make drives A and B. I think drives 0 and 1 become A and drives 1 and 2 become B but I could be wrong.

This tells you how to use the 7 system discs to create runnable programs, e.g. COBOL. You will need to format disc images for CP/M.

I did all this on BeebEm and I hope that I can just put the resultant images on my Turbo MMC and then use them on my Beeb but we shall see!

As far as the 6502 goes - just switch it on and load Tube Elite. Try this link http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/elite/bbc/


My matchbox has not arrive yet...

I will try and add some detail as I find out more.

Good luck JonB

Lardo
Last edited by Lardo Boffin on Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Atom, issue 5
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
USA Model B
BBC Master, Datacentre + HDD, pi co-proc, econet, NULA

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by fordp » Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:06 pm

Thanks John,

Maybe you can start a Z80 page on the Wiki :)
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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by tricky » Fri Dec 25, 2015 12:36 pm

Mine arrived as we were leaving the house for the hols, it would be nice to have a photo of it fitted directly to a beeb to avoid the is it upside down worries. Also, an image for the DNFS would probably be helpful. Sorry I can't do either of these from here.

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by jgharston » Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:53 pm

You need DNFS or a Watford DFS with a 'T' suffix if you are using a BBC B or B+, the Master has the Tube code in the MOS. DNFS ROM image available here (this is the patched version that allows the use of 3.5" disk drives).

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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jonb
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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by jonb » Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:57 pm

A quick fitting guide.

Here's a plain old BBC B. In rather good condition.
image.jpeg
Tidy...l
Let's flip it over....
image.jpeg
Co Processor above the Tube interface
Fitting is simply a matter of folding the Tube connector lugs back, flipping the coprocessor over and carefully mating the plug with the Tube socket. It needs a pretty good push to get it slotted in fully.
image.jpeg
Next stop: Tube Elite!
If it's any reassurance, I don't think it is possible to fit it the wrong way up.

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by wodge » Sat Dec 26, 2015 12:13 pm

Mine works with just the Turbo MMC rom in the B, no other ROM's installed

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by jgharston » Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:46 pm

wodge wrote:Mine works with just the Turbo MMC rom in the B, no other ROMs installed
No BASIC, no Operating System? ;)

That implies that the TurboMMC ROM also has the Tube Host code. So, so far, we have the following list of Tube Host ROMs:
DNFS 3.xx
Watford DFS version T
Master MOS 3.xx
TurboMMC

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by SteveBagley » Sat Dec 26, 2015 2:50 pm

jgharston wrote: That implies that the TurboMMC ROM also has the Tube Host code. So, so far, we have the following list of Tube Host ROMs:
DNFS 3.xx
Watford DFS version T
Master MOS 3.xx
TurboMMC
Either the 1770 DFS or OS 2.00 also contains the TUbe code judging by my B+ working fine with the matchbox.

Steve

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by Lardo Boffin » Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:19 pm

Having seen the photos of the co-proc plugging directly into the tube port I am glad I have just spent £5 on a cable for it. Hey ho!

On the plus side it is a rainbow cable so it looks nice, a bit like the BitStik cable - adds a bit of colour to the proceedings.

Lardo.
Atom, issue 5
BBC model B 32k issue 4, 16k sideways RAM, Watford 12 ROM board, Acorn 6502 coproc
BBC model B 32k issue 7, turboMMC, Opus Challenger 3 512k, Pi 3 coproc
USA Model B
BBC Master, Datacentre + HDD, pi co-proc, econet, NULA

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by jgharston » Sat Dec 26, 2015 3:50 pm

SteveBagley wrote:Either the 1770 DFS or OS 2.00 also contains the TUbe code judging by my B+ working fine with the matchbox.
Yes, forgot about that.
Acorn 8271 DNFS 3.xx
Acorn 1770 non-Master DFS
Watford DFS version T
Master MOS 3.xx
TurboMMC

Code: Select all

$ bbcbasic
PDP11 BBC BASIC IV Version 0.25
(C) Copyright J.G.Harston 1989,2005-2015
>_

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by SteveF » Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:24 pm

Is this the right thread for troubleshooting? I wasn't sure if here or the development thread or somewhere else would be better.

I've got my new matchbox co-pro hooked up to a Master 128 (not the faulty one mentioned in my post yesterday!) via an extension cable. Yesterday it didn't boot properly but showed garbled text (sometimes including suggestive words like 'Tube'). Today the Master just acts as though there's no co-pro connected. It's configured for 'Tube' and 'External Tube' and I've tried it with an Acorn Z80 second processor and that works fine.

The matchbox board has (numbering the LEDs from 1 nearest the tube connector to 8 furthest from it for the sake of this description) LEDs 2-6 and 8 illuminated (2-4 noticeably less bright than the others). If I hold down Break on the Master, LEDs 2 & 3 turn off and LED 4 illuminates brightly until I release Break.

Am I right in inferring all this suggests I do at least have the connectors the right way round?

I have a working BBC B *somewhere* but I can't find it right now, so I haven't been able to test with another machine.

I've tried issuing some *FX151,230,N commands but none seem to have any effect. I haven't altered the hardware DIP switches since I received it, but they are all in the same position (not sure if they're all on or all off).

Does anyone have any advice?

Cheers.

Steve

ETA: I meant *FX151 not *FX150... Also I should maybe say this is a bog-standard Master 128 with no add-ons and the standard OS 3.2 ROMs.

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by SteveF » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:09 pm

SteveF wrote:I have a working BBC B *somewhere* but I can't find it right now, so I haven't been able to test with another machine.
Found it! The matchbox co-pro works a treat on the BBC B plugged directly into the tube socket. So I thought the cable must be bad or connected the wrong way round. But no, it works fine *with* the extension cable on the BBC B. (I didn't check the stability, but it boots fine.) And yet it still doesn't work on my Master, even though the Master works fine with an Acorn Z80.

Would appreciate any thoughts on this...

Cheers.

Steve

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by danielj » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:55 pm

Mine did that initially, but a few re-insertions and control breaks and it started behaving. It's also running on a cable...

d.

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by DutchAcorn » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:32 pm

jgharston wrote:
SteveBagley wrote:Either the 1770 DFS or OS 2.00 also contains the TUbe code judging by my B+ working fine with the matchbox.
Yes, forgot about that.
Acorn 8271 DNFS 3.xx
Acorn 1770 non-Master DFS
Watford DFS version T
Master MOS 3.xx
TurboMMC
You can also add the other MMC filing systems: Smart SPI, DFS MMB and Super MMC.
Paul

Image

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by hoglet » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:52 pm

SteveF wrote: Found it! The matchbox co-pro works a treat on the BBC B plugged directly into the tube socket. So I thought the cable must be bad or connected the wrong way round. But no, it works fine *with* the extension cable on the BBC B. (I didn't check the stability, but it boots fine.) And yet it still doesn't work on my Master, even though the Master works fine with an Acorn Z80.

Would appreciate any thoughts on this...
A couple of things to check on the Master:
- Make sure that DFS (ROM 9) is not unplugged (with a *ROMS)
- Try *CONFIGURE INTUBE - this is counter intuitive but gives better behaviour with *FX 151,246, N

Dave

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by SteveF » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:59 pm

hoglet wrote: - Try *CONFIGURE INTUBE - this is counter intuitive but gives better behaviour with *FX 151,246, N
Cheers Dave, I will give that a go and report back. Is there a difference between *FX151,246,N and *FX151,230,N as on the wiki? (https://github.com/hoglet67/CoPro6502/wiki)

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by hoglet » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:05 pm

SteveF wrote:
hoglet wrote: - Try *CONFIGURE INTUBE - this is counter intuitive but gives better behaviour with *FX 151,246, N
Cheers Dave, I will give that a go and report back. Is there a difference between *FX151,246,N and *FX151,230,N as on the wiki? (https://github.com/hoglet67/CoPro6502/wiki)
Sorry, that was a typo.

I meant *FX151,230,N

Dave

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by SteveF » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:43 pm

danielj wrote:Mine did that initially, but a few re-insertions and control breaks and it started behaving. It's also running on a cable...
I think this did it. It doesn't really make any sense to me but having removed and re-inserted the connector once more it is now working fine on the Master, at least well enough for a few minutes' fiddling with Tube Elite and Z80 BBC BASIC.

If the Acorn Z80 hadn't worked I might have put it down to dirt on the tube connector on the Master; maybe the cable I'm using grips the pins in a slightly different place or something.

Dave - I tried your suggestions, DFS was not unplugged and I've now switched to the 'Internal Tube' configuration, but I temporarily reverted back to External Tube and it still worked, so I don't think that was the original problem.

Thanks all!

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by hoglet » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:46 pm

SteveF wrote: Dave - I tried your suggestions, DFS was not unplugged and I've now switched to the 'Internal Tube' configuration, but I temporarily reverted back to External Tube and it still worked, so I don't think that was the original problem.
So is it working on the Master now?

Dave

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by SteveF » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:07 pm

hoglet wrote: So is it working on the Master now?
Yes, thanks, sorry if that wasn't clear - I think just disconnecting it and reconnecting it another time made the difference, as it did for danielj.

Cheers.

Steve

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by hoglet » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:19 pm

SteveF wrote:
hoglet wrote: So is it working on the Master now?
Yes, thanks, sorry if that wasn't clear - I think just disconnecting it and reconnecting it another time made the difference, as it did for danielj.

Cheers.

Steve
Cool.

The difference between INTUBE and EXTUBE is subtle, but if you switch to the "Null Co Processor" (design 6, *FX 151,230,6) with EXTUBE (e.g. to temporarily disable the Co Processor), then you'll find yourself unable to switch back and will have to power down. That's really the only difference. But on the master there are other ways to disable the Co Processor anyway.

Dave

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by TheCorfiot » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:07 am

You dont need to power cycle, type

*CON. NOTUBE
*FX 151,230,X. (X=PROCESSOR ID)
PRESS BREAK, you should see the lights on the copro change.
*CON. TUBE
CTRL BREAK.

:)

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by sweh » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:15 pm

SteveF wrote:Found it! The matchbox co-pro works a treat on the BBC B plugged directly into the tube socket. So I thought the cable must be bad or connected the wrong way round. But no, it works fine *with* the extension cable on the BBC B. (I didn't check the stability, but it boots fine.) And yet it still doesn't work on my Master, even though the Master works fine with an Acorn Z80.

Would appreciate any thoughts on this...
So I have a issue 4 and a issue 7 Beeb. On the issue 4 it worked first time... but felt loose. On the issue 7 it never worked at all. Both of these beebs had worked, previously, with the JK's de0-nano based co-pro so I knew the machines were good :-)

So I looked more carefully. The power LED lit up, but the board wasn't recognised.

And it seems that Jason's circuit board doesn't leave enough space to allow the board to seat into the socket fully. The edges of the board catch and block on the IDC lugs.

So I took a vicious solution and snipped corners off the board each side of the connector. It _looks_ like they're just baseplane and I wasn't snipping any circuit. Also the board has some hatch-marks which make me think they should be removed...
2015-12-31 14.56.26.jpg
And now the board fits snugly and pushes all the way to the back of the connector. It's solid in the machine and starts up nicely :-)
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by tricky » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:07 am

I had a similar issue with the old board and one of my beebs, I took the alternate approach of filling down the top of the plastic clips instead.

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by poink » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:52 pm

sweh wrote:And it seems that Jason's circuit board doesn't leave enough space to allow the board to seat into the socket fully. The edges of the board catch and block on the IDC lugs.
I had a similar situation. There seems to have been multiple IDC connectors used on the Beeb; the more usual one has a half surround, and allows the co-pro to fit. If it's any consolation, the other connector seems more unusual (therefore it's 'extremely r@re' and should be listed for at least £5,000 on eBay :lol:).
sweh wrote:Also the board has some hatch-marks which make me think they should be removed...
I believe the 'hash marks' are the lugs from the vertical mount IDC connector that's pictured on the silk screen!

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by sweh » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:39 pm

Lardo Boffin wrote:I did all this on BeebEm and I hope that I can just put the resultant images on my Turbo MMC and then use them on my Beeb but we shall see!
Did you ever do this? I just tried making an image... but it didn't work. Through some testing I _think_ TurboMMC may not transfer data to the right address with OSWORD 7F (which CPM uses to load data) and a copro (works properly without a copro). I've sent an email to Steve Picton to see if he has any comments/ideas.

Unfortunately I don't have any non-TurboMMC machines around. I might have to try and build a cheapo board with SmartSPI ROM and see if that works better.
Rgds
Stephen

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Re: Matchbox co-processor new users

Post by JudgeBeeb » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:53 pm

sweh wrote:I might have to try and build a cheapo board with SmartSPI ROM and see if that works better.
I haven't had any joy with SMART SPI either. It seems as if MMBImager doesn't recognised the CP/M images.
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