Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

for bbc micro/electron hardware, peripherals & programming issues (NOT emulators!)
Post Reply
User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:42 pm

OK - so, this is as good as I can get them. If it's looking OK and useful, I'll continue through the whole batch?

Let's start with the PET...
Attachments
2015-10-05-0002.tif
2015-10-05-0002.tif (125.95 KiB) Viewed 654 times

User avatar
IanS
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by IanS » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:51 pm

Hmm, you can almost read some of the pin numbers.

Is the limitation the microfilm or your scanner?

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 4879
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by daveejhitchins » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:55 pm

Daniel:

Better than I achieved . . . I wonder what they look like through a high powered magnifier, with a good light source**? This would tell you the actual quality of the negatives. There would be no point in trying to get better than the actual negatives themselves.

**Maybe a look at the numbering around the ICs would give a good indication.

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ARA III, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
paulv
Posts: 3853
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:37 pm
Location: Leicestershire
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by paulv » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:57 pm

At almost 1200 dpi, it must be the resolution of the original slide that's the limiting factor. With some effort it would be possible to recreate a modern version of the circuit diagram from that scan which would be useful.

Do all the slides look like they have hand written aspects to them?

Paul

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:00 pm

I'm at the limit of the scanner, it's doing them at 4800dpi (that's its optical resolution). The only thing I can think of doing is asking the digital services guys in the University Library whether they can help out. I suspect they might be able to...

d.

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:03 pm

Power Supply (this one's less legible)...
Attachments
2015-10-05-0003.tif
2015-10-05-0003.tif (56.96 KiB) Viewed 654 times

User avatar
paulv
Posts: 3853
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:37 pm
Location: Leicestershire
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by paulv » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:22 pm

danielj wrote:it's doing them at 4800dpi (that's its optical resolution)
Are you shrinking them down for the site or is there some form of scaling going on with the scanner software? IrfanView is reporting them as being 1175dpi...

Paul

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:31 pm

Probably because I said the output size should be A6... (it'll just be the physical size the TIFF thinks it is rather than any more/less pixels scanned)...

:-?

d.

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:42 pm

Just tried a few more and it's really pushing it - I'll pop across to the library tomorrow lunchtime and see what I can do - it looks like they have the relevant kit: http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/ser ... -scanning/

d.

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:39 pm

It's amazing what using the right gear can do...
Attachments
teaser.zip
(549.08 KiB) Downloaded 97 times

User avatar
paulv
Posts: 3853
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:37 pm
Location: Leicestershire
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by paulv » Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:54 pm

Wow! That's quite amazing! :shock:

=D> =D> =D>

I know it's a black and white scan but the dithering would suggest that you may get even better results if you do a grey scale version if it's possible. It may be worth a test scan at least.

Paul

paulb
Posts: 811
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by paulb » Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:58 pm

What gear did you use in the end? I could only find instructions for conventional multi-purpose scanners on that UoM site. Do they have something much nicer?

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:12 pm

They have a fairly highfalutin microfilm and microfiche viewer which has a scanner built into it. I think it was one of these: http://kmbs.konicaminolta.us/wps/portal ... s6000-mkii

Unfortunately you have to stick the thing in the reader, go over to the computer, press scan, go back to the reader, move it, go back to the computer, press scan etc, etc. Each card needed 6 scans. I did them at max zoom, 800dpi.

I'll give myself a couple of days off and go back and see if I can tweak the settings a bit, as I just basically burnt my lunch hour doing all of them. :D

d.

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:39 pm

I should say, if anyone wants to have a go at stitching, drop me a PM...

d.

paulb
Posts: 811
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by paulb » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:16 pm

danielj wrote:They have a fairly highfalutin microfilm and microfiche viewer which has a scanner built into it. I think it was one of these: http://kmbs.konicaminolta.us/wps/portal ... s6000-mkii

Unfortunately you have to stick the thing in the reader, go over to the computer, press scan, go back to the reader, move it, go back to the computer, press scan etc, etc. Each card needed 6 scans. I did them at max zoom, 800dpi.

I'll give myself a couple of days off and go back and see if I can tweak the settings a bit, as I just basically burnt my lunch hour doing all of them. :D

d.
Your efforts are appreciated! =D>

Short of your equipment discovery, I was going to suggest options involving magnification, as opposed to trying to get the best out of a flatbed scanner or similar apparatus. Every now and again, I read discussions about slide copying using lashed-up rigs of cameras and macro lenses, although I'd really want to be sure that the resolution delivered does actually exceed what you'd normally get. Otherwise, it's just a great way of doing stuff the hard way. :)

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:19 pm

Bit rough and ready - this one needs re-doing,missed the edge... I should say that this is probably the "largest" I can do them as whole files. The full sized images are MUCH bigger, but the board can't take a 70mb TIFF...

d.
Attachments
PETout2.png

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 8097
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by hoglet » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:29 pm

We should probably start a new thread discussing how the PET tester was designed to work.

The connectors are interesting.....

SK1 (top/left) looks like it's designed to plug into an Atom PL7 connector, or maybe a System bus connector - I think they are the same.

Anyone any idea how the other connectors attached to the Beeb?

Dave

station240
Posts: 864
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:11 pm
Location: South Australia
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by station240 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:43 am

No one seems to really know the connections for the PET, hence the need to get the circuit.

best guess however considering how the pins are wired.
PL6 1Mhz bus
PL5 Printer port
PL4 User port
PL3 unknown (not wired correctly for a Disc Drive)
PL2 Tube???

http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... n_PET.html

dp11
Posts: 927
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by dp11 » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:22 am

Pl1 clips on top of the 6502 I think.

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:31 am

I think Mark (retroclinic) has one. I haven't seen a copy of the ROM anywhere - that would probably go some way to explaining what's what?

d.

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:29 pm

Today we have an early FIT...

d.
Attachments
protonFIT small.png

User avatar
paulv
Posts: 3853
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:37 pm
Location: Leicestershire
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by paulv » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:37 pm

Wow. considering this is the only other version of that schematic that I know of...

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/pdf/ ... st-Jig.pdf

I think you've done exceptionally well up to now! Keep up the good work!

Paul

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:46 pm

Thanks Paul, it's really nice to know these are "unseen" and improving what's been archived!

Another one:
prelimcircuit small.jpg

User avatar
1024MAK
Posts: 8668
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:46 pm
Location: Looking forward to summer in Somerset, UK...
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by 1024MAK » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:16 pm

Well worth it =D> =D> =D>

Mark

User avatar
daveejhitchins
Posts: 4879
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Newton Aycliffe, County Durham
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by daveejhitchins » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:29 am

Daniel:

Thanks for persevering and producing great scans - and again . . . thanks to all who contributed, appreciated.

Dave H :D
Parts: UM6502CE, GAL22V10D, GAL16V8D, AS6C62256A, TC514400AZ, WD1772, R6522, TMS27C512, AT28C256
Products: ARA II, ARA III, ABR, ATI, AP6, MGC, AP5 . . .
For a price list, contact me at: Retro Hardware AT dave ej hitchins DOT plus DOT com

User avatar
danielj
Posts: 7160
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 pm
Location: Manchester
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by danielj » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:57 pm

Teletext adaptor!
TeletextAdapterSmaller.png

User avatar
DutchAcorn
Posts: 2070
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:56 am
Location: Maarn, Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by DutchAcorn » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:11 am

hoglet wrote:We should probably start a new thread discussing how the PET tester was designed to work.

The connectors are interesting.....

SK1 (top/left) looks like it's designed to plug into an Atom PL7 connector, or maybe a System bus connector - I think they are the same.

Anyone any idea how the other connectors attached to the Beeb?

Dave
There is a PET tester on ebay now. Seller only posts to UK so not for me but I don't mind chipping in if it helps getting this in capable hands.
Paul

Image

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 8097
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by hoglet » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:27 am

DutchAcorn wrote: There is a PET tester on ebay now. Seller only posts to UK so not for me but I don't mind chipping in if it helps getting this in capable hands.
I'm not completely clued up on this, but there were three types of tester:
- A Progressive Establishment Tester (PET) - http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... n_PET.html
- A Final Inspection Tester (FIT) - http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... n_FIT.html
- A Port Tester (PT) - not seen a picture of this

I think the eBay item is a port tester, because it looks different to the other two.

Dave

User avatar
Wouter Scholten
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed May 02, 2001 10:14 pm
Location: NL
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by Wouter Scholten » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:19 pm

hoglet wrote:
DutchAcorn wrote: There is a PET tester on ebay now. Seller only posts to UK so not for me but I don't mind chipping in if it helps getting this in capable hands.
I'm not completely clued up on this, but there were three types of tester:
- A Progressive Establishment Tester (PET) - http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... n_PET.html
- A Final Inspection Tester (FIT) - http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... n_FIT.html
- A Port Tester (PT) - not seen a picture of this

I think the eBay item is a port tester, because it looks different to the other two.

Dave
Port tester? What is that supposed to do?

There is a 3rd tester that I know of and which I have: An econet test box. I have the PET and FIT testers too, and software and manuals. Today I finally read in the EPROMs FIT 1.00 [ 2532 ], PET 4.00 [ 2732 ], then for the BBC micro itself, FIT test ROM 1 (201 639-02) [ 27128 ], FIT test ROM 2 (201 640-02) [ 27128 ]. Next week perhaps trying it out, finally. Who else has a PET/FIT tester and dumped the ROMs? I'd like some verification that the bits are still OK...

User avatar
hoglet
Posts: 8097
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm
Location: Bristol
Contact:

Re: Scans of Microfilm Circuit Diagrams

Post by hoglet » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:23 pm

A "Port Tester" is mentioned here:
http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org ... gNews1.pdf

and here:
viewtopic.php?t=9637

and the BBC Model B+ Service Manual says:
A PORT tester is available for the microcomputer. This is an uprated
version of the old FIT tester. It will check the DRAMs, and all the
I/O ports on the microcomputer: disc, printer, user, 1MHz bus, TUBE,
UHF, video, RGB, RS423, cassette, A to D, and ECONET. To use this
tester, the microcomputer must at least have the CPU running and the
MOS/BASIC ROM working and sane of the
RAM working.
Full operating instructions are supplied with the equipment.

Post Reply